The ProLife Team Podcast
Content for ProLife Leaders from ProLife Leaders
The ProLife Team Podcast
#201 Faith and Law: A Deep Dive
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Jacob Barr with ProLife Ribbon and iRapture.com
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The podcast episode delves into the implications of the new Texas pro-life law, HB7, discussing its impact on citizens and the legal mechanisms it introduces.
Jacob Barr (00:03)
And okay. Welcome to the Pro Life Team podcast. I'm Jacob, but I'm here with Father Frank Pavone. And today we're going to be talking, well, starting off the conversation about HB7 out of Texas. ⁓ Father Frank, before we dive into that Texas law, for those who don't know about the work you've been doing and who you are in this movement, would you share some background about the passion and ⁓ energy that you bring to rescuing the unborn?
Frank Pavone (00:33)
Well, thanks Jacob. And thanks for your commitment and doing podcasts like these. It's always a great pleasure to be on with you and to see you at different events. So I got involved in the Pro-Life Movement when I was in high school. And it led to me eventually going into national leadership as director of Priests for Life, which actually is broader than the title suggests. It's not just for Catholic priests. It's not just for Catholics. It's a movement now, which is one of the largest pro-life organizations.
And what we do is we mobilize churches, we work in the political realm to elect pro-life candidates, we work for healing after abortion, we oversee the largest healing ministry in the world, we have ⁓ educational activities, we're a publishing arm, we have speakers that go around and talk at pro-life events. And as you have been involved with us, you've seen we bring leaders together, the national leaders in these beautiful meetings, strategy meetings.
four times a year. that's some of what I've been privileged to do. do broadcasting every day and we are just a movement which we describe it as a family of ministries. We try to keep both the church and the rest of society and our government officials keeping abortion top of their priority list. That's one of the things we're always trying to do. It's like, okay, it's not enough to be pro-life.
This has got to be priority number one if we're going to end this Holocaust.
Jacob Barr (02:06)
Awesome. So let's dive into this new Texas ⁓ pro-life law. ⁓ Can you describe the law and just share your thoughts, maybe describe what it is and how it's going to help?
Frank Pavone (02:12)
Yeah.
Yeah.
So to put this in context, you Texas has been a leading state. As a matter of fact, I was just recently with the Lieutenant Governor, Dan Patrick, he's a great man. And people might not realize, but Texas is unique in as much as the Lieutenant Governor has more of a role in the legislative process than in any other state. The Lieutenant Governor actually sets the legislative agenda.
You know, in most other states, you've got, you know, you've got a leader in the House, you've got a leader in the Senate, just like we have in the federal Congress. But Lieutenant Governor of Texas is a strong pro-life, pro-freedom guy. He's become a friend of mine and he's ⁓ just fantastic. So with that, as just a little bit of a background, with leadership like his and the governor and many pro-life legislators, Texas, a few years ago,
became one of the states where babies in the womb are protected throughout pregnancy. So we have had, it's a beautiful flowering, if you will, of the victory we had in the Dobbs decision, which said, hey, you wanna protect the unborn? The court's not gonna get in your way. That summarizes in common language what the Dobbs decision said. You wanna protect them? Go right ahead. So Texas went right ahead. Now that includes chemical abortion.
But there were some loopholes, okay, in terms especially of what we've started to see is this interstate and even international trafficking of these abortion drugs. Very dangerous. ⁓ And the federal government under Biden didn't help because they took away so many of the safeguards for women's health and safety and using these drugs. Of course, nevermind the safety of the baby.
But the point is that what happened most recently, just a matter of weeks ago, is that the governor signed into law a bill, like you said, HB 7, which says, look, we're gonna close these loopholes. And it targets especially the Mifepristone that's being mailed. 19, let me look at the stats here. Some 19,000 abortion pills are shipped into Texas every year.
illegally because again, Texas already protects these babies, but the loopholes are here in all of this, you know, this commerce in abortion drugs. And this new law says, you know what, we're going to penalize anyone who manufactures, distributes, mails or provides, that's the wording, abortion medication to Texas, even if it's somebody who's, who's mailing it from out of state, you know, this is not legal in Texas.
So any citizen now, and this is the mechanism that this new law puts into effect, any citizen can bring a lawsuit against somebody who is seen or caught doing any of these things. So, you you're receiving in the mail, your neighbor notices, hey, what are you doing? You know, or a friend has, know, I've got some of these abortion drugs here, you know. Anyone can initiate a lawsuit and say, you know what, you're breaking the law.
And the penalties could be like $100,000 of ⁓ fine against the person who's even just handing these drugs to somebody else. so Texas is closing the loopholes, it's cracking down, it's doing something, Jacob, which is a really, what I find so exciting about it is this, you've heard it, I've heard it, pro-life leaders, pro-life activists, pro-life citizens, kind of,
wondering, scratching their heads and wondering, with all these, how easy it is now to circulate abortion drugs, how do we get a handle on this? How do we start reining this in? How do we stop this? Well, Texas is given a big answer to that question.
Jacob Barr (06:25)
That's really good. Cause yeah, I remember having those thoughts, um, years ago and, I, and I would still say there's a lot of brainstorming that I feel like is left to be done, but you know, how do we, how do we filter the mail? How do we stop something from being shipped in these, um, in these discrete ways? And that, and this is, and this is the answer is to let private, this is one good answer is to let private citizens respond.
Frank Pavone (06:37)
yeah.
Jacob Barr (06:54)
who have, you in order to provide the teeth to the law, that's an amazing, and I think, yeah, so, and these drugs are designed to end life. I mean, if you think about different drugs that are illegal, a lot of drugs are dangerous. Illegal drugs are dangerous, but these are actually designed to end, to end the life of the child inside of that mother.
Frank Pavone (07:00)
precise.
Jacob Barr (07:22)
and then to expel the child from the mother. so why wouldn't, yeah, I mean, it makes sense for drugs of this level, of this danger, this, you know, that are poison ⁓ to be, yeah, it's sort of, it's interesting to think about how we want to stop fentanyl, we want to stop all sorts of illegal drugs. There's a desire because it hurts the health of the people who are taking it.
And then these are literally designed to end life. ⁓
Frank Pavone (07:55)
Well, you
you could say it this way, these are drugs that are designed to do exactly the opposite of what drugs are designed to do. It contradicts the purpose of medicine. And ⁓ not only that, but what Texas is saying is, hey, listen, you're going to take this into people's living rooms, then we're going to take the law into their living rooms, too. You know, we're going to take the enforcement, we should say, into their living rooms, too. So we're going to chase down this evil wherever it goes.
Jacob Barr (08:05)
Yeah.
Frank Pavone (08:24)
And that's, liked, I love that fighting spirit of Texas. And, you know, again, I think of Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick. He's a, he's a friend of President Trump. And it's like that fight, fight, fight spirit that's in him. And that's driving a lot of this.
Jacob Barr (08:36)
Yeah.
Yeah, I remember, wow, this might be from a decade ago. remember you were, um, you're, don't even know where I heard you say this, but I remember hearing you say something to the effect of, I'm not going to let up or, you know, slow down the fight. Um, and, you know, on protecting the unborn until the unborn are protected. I remember you've felt what someone was telling you to slow down. Um,
Frank Pavone (09:03)
Yes.
Yeah.
Jacob Barr (09:07)
step down, back off, relax. And I remember your response. How would you respond to that today if someone said, you need to stop defending the unborn with such veracity?
Frank Pavone (09:10)
Right.
I will know. But my response would be no. And to expound on it, it says, that's right. You know, the fight will stop when the fight is won. That's when it'll stop. And it's like, you know, I've also been criticized then, and we'll get into this more, I know it later in our discussion, but some church leaders who say, oh, Father Frank is too aggressive on abortion. And when I first heard that, my response was, and you I always try to maintain the utmost amount of respect, especially for authority. But I say, listen,
Jacob Barr (09:20)
Next
Yeah.
Frank Pavone (09:47)
As soon as abortion stops being aggressive on these unborn babies, you can talk to me about being aggressive, but my goodness. And that's why I love so much President Trump, because again, it's that fight, fight, fight mentality. That's what we need. It's not enough to have the right position. You know, a lot of people in the church, they have the right position on abortion. Even a lot of politicians, they all have right position, but that's not enough. Having the right position doesn't win the war. It's the fighting, the sustained, strategic, persevering fighting that wins the war.
Jacob Barr (10:17)
That's good. and I remember the, Texas had passed the heartbeat bill. ⁓ I think it was in 22, well, several years ago, a couple of years ago. And, and this is just simply, you know, patching the holes it seems like, or, responding to the, the shortcomings of that one with, you know, based on new insights of how people were getting around it.
Frank Pavone (10:23)
Yes.
They took several steps, and Florida, by the way, is doing the same thing. We've been moving more and more pro-life over recent years in terms of the legislation, but Texas had the heartbeat law, and then they went further and they said, we're gonna protect all the babies even before the heartbeat is detected. And now they're closing loopholes in terms of the chemical abortion and in terms of the private enforcement of this prohibition. So.
Yeah, they've been going stronger and stronger as time has gone on in these last few years. And they started all this before the Dobbs decision came down. When the Dobbs decision came down, of course, that supercharged it and gave them even more confidence, and rightly so.
Jacob Barr (11:21)
So can you speak about who this HB7 law in Texas, you who is it going after, you know, meaning like the manufacturers, the distributors, and then who is it not going after, meaning the women who may take the abortion pill?
Frank Pavone (11:29)
Okay, yes.
That's right.
Right.
That's a very important point, as you and I have discussed before. Pregnant women seeking out for themselves or taking the abortion drugs are exempt from being sued under HB7. So we're not targeting that mom. She's in enough distress. And she's not the primary perpetrator here anyway. It's the people who are pushing these drugs.
So you're talking about who can a citizen, again, anyone can bring a lawsuit in regard to this, but who are the targets? Doctors who prescribe it, companies who mail these pills, a family member or a friend who orders the abortion pills for their pregnant friend, they can be sued under this provision. And those are the basic categories, but not the mother herself.
Jacob Barr (12:34)
Yeah. And I think that's important because not all, but often, or sometimes the woman who is taking the abortion pill does not have informed consent. She has been manipulated. The messaging has fallen short for her to have informed consent of what is truly happening. there's just, I feel like our law is designed to not
Frank Pavone (12:47)
That's right.
Mm-hmm.
Jacob Barr (13:03)
attack innocent women or people. it's good to, you know, we don't want to put any innocent women through, yeah, into jail or to have, you know, it just feels like there's based on informed consent, not being regular when it comes to how people are treated in this space. It feels like that's a major concern over going after the women who are, who are taking these abortion pills.
Frank Pavone (13:29)
The whole climate, the whole culture, the whole environment we're in is blinding us, and I say us in general, women in society, all of us, to the reality of what abortion is. And that's why it's, we know that that baby deserves just as much protection as you and I do and anyone else does, but there is a uniqueness about abortion. It's not an exception to the fact that these babies are human.
It's an exception to the fact that normally people know and admit that murder is murder. So you're gonna shoot someone in the street or commit some other violent crime or lose a bomb or whatever. It's like people understand that's murder. But when it comes to abortion, it's the only form of murder that is so widespread denied. And that's why we're just not on an equal plane.
with our friends who say, well, you know, it's murder, so we treat the woman as a murderer. Well, not so fast. Of course it's murder. But is there any other form of murder that is more widely covered up and denied and people don't even believe that that's a human being? You gotta deal with that. That's what makes enforcement of abortion laws really in a category by itself.
Jacob Barr (14:49)
Yeah, and the father of lies has done a lot of lying about abortion and around abortion. And when it comes to dispelling false beliefs, when it comes to identifying and having truth prevail, this is a space where that still needs to happen.
Frank Pavone (14:55)
Yeah.
That's right. Exactly. the devil has a lot of allies in very, very influential sectors of society. You've got the whole media enterprise. Although we've been making progress, chipping away at media bias. We've been making great progress, especially under President Trump. But you've got the media bias. You've got the, you
Of course, for the longest time, the Supreme Court calling it a constitutional right, but then again, we've broken through that barrier now. But all this stuff has an effect over decades of time, and that's exactly what you're pointing to.
Jacob Barr (15:50)
So I'd like to step into the next chapter or section of this podcast and talk about Charlie Kirk for a moment. So we were at the Museum of the Bible. I was at your leadership meeting there. And near the end of the day, word came in from one of ⁓ your team members who was supporting the event saying he announced to the group that Charlie Kirk had been shot.
Frank Pavone (16:00)
⁓ yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Jacob Barr (16:19)
What were your thoughts and reactions at that time? then, yeah, go ahead and continue on as you as time has passed and you had, you've had more time to consider and process all that is represented with this ⁓ assassination or martyr, however you want to call it, ⁓ this attack on a Christian.
Frank Pavone (16:37)
Yeah. Yeah, I was,
well, I was angry. mean, I mean, there were some church leaders that didn't even know who Charlie was. But I not only knew well who he was, like all of us in the room did, but I knew him and we interacted and we communicated with each other and we would be on, at events together, I'd be on his program regularly. We would text one another occasionally. And it was like, we did stuff together. And
you know, all of those who can say that, can express, course, that, I mean, on one level, there's a personal sadness there at, at, ⁓ you know, and, and a sense of, of, you know, being offended because they're attacking a friend or an associate, ally. Secondly, it was a, a reaction for me of, of, you know, anger because, especially when it was announced a few hours later that he had, he had actually died.
⁓ The thought that kept running through my mind is we've been robbed. We've been robbed of a leader, a national treasure, an agent of change, a visionary, someone who was not only articulate, he was very good at articulating the message and inviting people into serious debate. And you can have serious debate on these serious issues if you have a level of goodwill that you're willing to talk.
And of course, Charlie, when he saw somebody had goodwill, he said, OK, on to the next person. We don't have time for this. know, because people, some of them weren't asking honest questions. But not only was Charlie good at the articulation of all of this, he was leading a movement. you know, as somebody put it, the left was enraged at him and he was killed not simply because he was speaking a powerful message, but because too many people were listening.
and they were responding to it. I mean, he and I worked together on elections and these abortion amendments that you and I were also dealing with prior to the November elections. he was raising up armies of people that were actually going to the polls and making a difference. So the sense of being robbed. And then also the other thought and feeling was that it was
How do we say this in the right way? It was like, okay, yes, this is the pattern. In other words, one can see the pattern of the left trying to, same thing, same reason they tried to assassinate President Trump. And they attacked, you know, back a few more years back, ⁓ Steve Scalise and a whole group of Republicans who were playing baseball. And it's like, what is the left doing?
It's the gospel message of the light came into the world, some preferred darkness. They hate the light. They don't want to go near the light. And in fact, they want to snuff it out. This is what the left does when they're losing, when they can't out debate somebody. And when they see the momentum on our side, they resort to murder.
Jacob Barr (19:53)
Yeah. So it's also interesting how some of the church leaders who did not know Charlie Kirk are now, some of them are, you know, hearing and seeing all of the footage of him on the campuses doing this work. And there's a lot of footage for someone to see. And then some are probably seeing the footage from that's, you know, that's slanted and cut in a way to try and ⁓
to minimize what he was doing. And it also seems very unique that there was this large reaction after his death of people celebrating his death. it was very, as someone who was trying to process what had just happened, it felt like there was this onslaught of people just posting these hateful ⁓ videos.
Frank Pavone (20:25)
Mm-hmm.
Jacob Barr (20:50)
And then there was this whole group of people getting fired for that posting of those hateful videos. And it just seemed like such a, you ⁓ know, wave after wave. And I'm still, feel like I'm still trying to process what, you know, what has happened.
Frank Pavone (21:03)
Yeah, I think
so. I think that's true. Where I think we're all still trying to process it. I mean, ⁓ I just feel that anger, justified anger every day. And it's like, this is so wrong. But you know, there's an old saying in Christianity that I've quoted a lot from the first day this happened. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of Christians. What that means is that when someone sacrifices his life for this, not that...
You go into that knowing that you're sacrificing your life, but you're not retreating from the truth and there are those that hate the truth so they'll attack you. You are, and then become an inspiration to others. And people say if that conviction is worth dying for, then it's worth living for. And so the blood of the martyrs makes the movement grow. I mean, he's having even more influence now after he has died.
than he did when he was alive. Not that he would have preferred this to happen, but God brings good out of evil. It remains evil, but God knows how to turn it to good. And like Charlie's widow said, Erica, they have no idea what they've unleashed. Now I was with over these recent days, some of the key leaders of different branches of Turning Point, because it has different branches. It has an educational branch, it has a faith branch, it has an action branch, and it's various others too.
And I was with these top guys and they were saying, you know, wouldn't believe how many people, how many countries, one guy told me in the education branch of it, 191 countries have reached out. And I said, you know, there aren't that many more countries in the world than that. You know, what is that? But it's something like 198. So it's like 191 countries. And it's like, wow, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. We're seeing that unfold before our very eyes. So it's...
You know, I've also talked about this from the point of view that we have to be careful of superficial calls for nonviolence. What I mean is it's easy to say, the political violence has to stop. And I think, and we've seen people on both sides of the aisle saying, yeah, political violence, that's not the way, that's certainly not the American way.
But those calls for peace and unity, for dialogue, like Charlie so championed and so forth, can be sometimes too superficial because if they ignore an underlying form of violence, which Charlie certainly did not ignore, in fact, he addressed it head on, the underlying form of violence is the violence that denies the very existence of truth.
Jacob Barr (23:37)
Mm-hmm.
Frank Pavone (23:59)
would destroy the very notion of morality, the violence that would deny the very existence of God. These are forms of violence because faith, morality and truth are under direct attack. There is a direct rebellion against these things. That's precisely what Charlie was fighting on the college campuses and through his political action. And it's like, think about the results. If you deny that there's truth, well then you make dialogue impossible. So you can't
call for dialogue and at the same time tolerate people who are denying truth. You can't call for unity and not address the attack on morality and God, which are the center of unity. Doesn't work. It doesn't work. We'd be going around in circles and deceiving ourselves and everybody else. So that's, would say, is my primary concern. I think this is a moment of opportunity
for people not only to reject political violence in the physical sense, but to reject the violence against truth, morality and faith.
Jacob Barr (25:07)
And I think an example of Charlie addressing one of these core issues that was an attack on God was when he would ask someone who disagreed, what is a woman? And when it comes to, know, when someone would say anyone can be a woman, that goes against what God has said in his word when it came to making them male and female.
It's, know, essentially that's attacking a pillar, ⁓ a pillar that's built on God's foundation or God's word. And when it comes to like, you know, saying a woman is, anyone can be a woman, that just simply creates this entire like, that's just an attack on God, I believe. And it has a lot of repercussions.
Frank Pavone (25:56)
Yes, it is.
Exactly. It has terrible repercussions because if you redefine that, I mean, I think it flows from, you can't say a man is a man a woman is a woman because we've been trying to say a baby's not a baby when it comes to the whole abortion thing. And that unleashes just, you can say anything about anything then. And then again, truth dissolves and what's left except chaos and fighting. So it has terrible repercussions and that has...
to get beyond this moment where people do feel an increasing amount of tension, people on both sides, they feel an increasing amount of instability. Of course, that's the goal, by the way, of those that want to transform this country into a communist nation. That's their goal, just destabilize everything. So a lot of these protests, know, they say when you study communism, the issue is never the issue.
So if you have a protest about Palestine, not about Palestine, George Floyd, this is not about him. It's about causing societal unrest. And they wanna destabilize everything so that they can just come in under a central government power and say, you need us now, we're gonna take over. ⁓ But yeah, these are some of the key things I think we have to be thinking about and talking about in the light of what happened in Charle.
Jacob Barr (27:19)
And so when I, so I went to the Memorial, ⁓ actually let me back up a moment. ⁓ so after I was, ⁓ flying back from Washington, DC, after the one 15 event, I landed in Phoenix and we were, and I did a search for like, where is turning point? And it was literally like within five minutes as I was driving down the highway and
Frank Pavone (27:25)
Okay.
⁓
Yeah.
Jacob Barr (27:46)
It just felt like everything was so close. Like all world events felt so close. ⁓ We used to work with one of the gentlemen that was on the stage. His name's Frank Turek with Cross Examine. We used to do some work for him and he was helping, he was one of Charlie's mentors when it came to, you know, going through ⁓ arguments for promoting, you know, promoting God's ⁓ truths and a variety of, ⁓ you know,
Frank Pavone (27:57)
Frank. OK.
Yeah.
Jacob Barr (28:16)
⁓ arguments and, and, ⁓ and then when I went, I went to the Memorial, ⁓ a few weeks later and we got there really early and it was a long day because we got there around 1 AM because it, and it was, there was like 20,000 people at 1 AM what, you know, in line, it was, it was a very busy event. and what was real, I think what was most interesting about that event was that
Frank Pavone (28:36)
Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah.
Jacob Barr (28:43)
There were a lot of government leaders who mentioned or talked about Jesus. Like that was, I think that's unique. And I know I have a limited amount of things to pull from when it comes to how that may be unique, but that seems very unique. It almost felt somewhat Old Testament unique when it came to like a government, know, a king in the Old Testament, you know, following Daniel's God or following, you know, the
Frank Pavone (28:51)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Jacob Barr (29:13)
you know, those were thrown into the fire, you know, tearing down their idols. And it just felt, it felt interesting. Like I felt really sort of bizarre in today's world that we had so many government officials of the highest level talking about Jesus because that was what Charlie talked about all the time. I mean, at every event it would come up.
Regularly, I mean it wouldn't be what the only thing you talked about but it was like it was like the driving force for why he did what he was doing ⁓
Frank Pavone (29:45)
Well,
I think you're really ⁓ zeroing in on something important here. My perspective on that is that, first of all, many of these government officials know full well, and they say it, that were it not for Charlie and the movement that he led, they wouldn't be in office right now. They would not be in office. So you combine that.
with a dynamic which you and I discussed prior to the election on some of our broadcasts, which is this, how many voters came to the conclusion when the election was approaching that this was no longer just the Republicans versus Democrats. This was good versus evil. And more and more believers were formulating the choice in the election in those terms. Believers
not just in Republican Party, but among the independents and among Democrats. When Charlie and I did work together regarding the elections, that was a frequent topic of conversation, that it was and it is a battle between good and evil. So this, see that very ⁓ monumental, unique ⁓ event of his memorial service as ⁓
kind of the next level of the unfolding of what happened in the election. Everyone starting to realize, hey, this is good versus evil. The forces of good mobilizing with that conviction in mind and electing the right people, people who would not have been elected were it not for the fact that leaders like Charlie and many others were saying, were framing it in those terms and were saying, you know what? And President Trump has said this even before all this happened.
says our nation only has Jesus as a savior. We're getting back to the environment here under which our country was founded in the first place. These founders were men of faith. And that's very clear from the history, very, very clear from the way they set up this government, not a theocracy, but a government where freedom of religion ⁓
was one of the very first purposes of establishing the government. And that's where I think that's how I think about that event. mean, these government leaders were not only mentioning Jesus, right? They were actually proclaiming the gospel. I mean, they were preaching better than a of pulpits. So it was a beautiful moment.
Jacob Barr (32:24)
It was, yeah, they were reflecting on how, you know, what Jesus meant to them. They were reflecting on how, um, it was just, they were authentically sharing about Jesus. wasn't like, uh, they, it was, it was beautiful and interesting and, and it was, and I'm, you know, it was really unique the way we have government leaders who normally try and have separation of church and state and not, and not that they're, know,
implementing a government mandate for church, but they're letting their faith show, you know, voice their faith in Jesus. And many of them admittedly said, you know, I'm not as strong of a Christian as Charlie was, but he's having an, you know, his faith is having an impact on me. And that was just very authentic. ⁓
And so I think just when people are authentically sharing about where they are and us, and people who are listening, maybe not putting the demand that they have to say things perfectly, but it's okay for them to say things authentically. I think that's really preferable because that's true. It's true for someone to share where they are in their faith journey.
Frank Pavone (33:27)
Right.
And it's where they are more and more politically in the sense that they realize, know, especially you take somebody like Marco Rubio, okay, he did a beautiful proclamation of the gospel at that service. I mean, think what this man is dealing with, Secretary of State. I mean, the peace of the world in many ways goes through his desk. And it's like, what a heavy responsibility. I was on a call of faith leaders, ⁓
Just prior to, during the very days when the big beautiful bill was coming towards a final vote and President Trump was on the phone all day long with members of the Senate and we had this call from faith leaders and Marco Rubio happened to walk by in the West Wing where the broadcast was emanating from and he hopped on the phone with us and he said, listen, said, none of this can work.
without faith in God, Jesus. He says, I'm unashamed to talk about that. We've got to be convinced. And he was saying to us as faith leaders, he said, don't think it's just about what we in the State Department or in the White House are doing. This nation survives because of you. and I think what's happening is that when we see events like that memorial service,
We're seeing the expression of this conviction that these government leaders know that the faith is not something extraneous to their job. They can only get their job done, ⁓ ultimately with the acknowledgement of God and for most of them, the Christian faith.
Jacob Barr (35:19)
Good. So I was talking with my wife last night about ⁓ different positions on abortion. And we were reflecting on how there's, you some people are against abortion because it is evil. And then there's some people who are for abortion, but then there's also this group in the middle that seemed like they have, they have bought into one of these lies. they're, they are uninformed.
Maybe they're leaning one way the other, but there's like this gray zone in the middle where people are uninformed about the truth of what is being aborted. Or when does life begin? There's all these questions that they bring up and some people have accepted a false belief about one thing, but then their position's very much built on sand where it shifts.
based on someone pushing on it. What are your thoughts on the different positions when it comes to those for abortion, those completely against abortion, and how would you wrestle with these people in the middle who are shifting so quickly when pushed?
Frank Pavone (36:35)
Many people are conflicted about this because as Americans we believe in both sides of the equation. That is freedom, choice on one side, and life on the other. And in the American spirit and DNA, if you will, those two things are not supposed to be in tension with each other. It's supposed to be together. So our declaration says life, liberty. All right, there it is, life and freedom.
are joined together as rights given by the same one God. So we get a little uncomfortable right from the start when we're presented with a problem that seems to put in opposition to each other two very fundamental, one might say the most fundamental elements of the American spirit. That's why there's a conflict here. And people have different positions based on their understanding
of what abortion actually is. So we have to reframe for people what is going on here. So for example, is it a battle between the mother's freedom and the child's life? Or is the battle perhaps between mother, father, and baby together on one side and an unscrupulous destructive abortion industry on the other? Not only unscrupulous and
and destructive, but unregulated largely. That's the real conflict. The abortion industry is destroying and harming both the mother and the baby and the father through their aggressive marketing of the abortion procedure, including the drugs that we talked about in the first part of this program. ⁓ If they can reframe it that way, if they can reframe their understanding of the woman who's getting an abortion as not somebody who's exercising her freedom of choice.
I we work all the time with people who've had abortions. They didn't get up that morning and say, I'm gonna exercise my freedom of choice today. They got up that morning saying, I have no freedom and no choice. I hate what's gonna happen today. Worst day of my life. I don't wanna do this. I know it's wrong, but I feel trapped. All right, if people have that understanding, then it's like, okay, wait a minute. We've gotta help this woman not to exercise her freedom of choice, but to find the better options other than killing her child.
And then there's the proper framing of what abortion is in the first place. You know, I say to people, we're having a fake debate on abortion. We're talking, we say the word, we're thinking about the killing of a baby. The other side says the word, they're thinking about the constitution, women's health, freedom. Well, we're not opposed to those things. We're opposed to baby killing. So to ask people who think they have an opinion on abortion, have you ever seen one? That's why we have the website, lookatabortion.org.
It's just, maybe if we started with that, or we start with the testimonies of Silent No More, and people can find these at AbortionTestimonies.com. So look at abortion, see what happens to the baby, and then AbortionTestimonies.com, listen to what happens to the mother. Then we'll have the starting point to have an authentic, ⁓
debate, conversation, working through, however one wants to phrase it, working through and trying to solve this problem. But it's those different images and those different framings that account for these different positions. Either people know who that baby is or they don't. Either they know what abortion does to that baby or they don't. Either they know what's going on with that woman or they don't.
Jacob Barr (39:56)
Thank you.
But it's so simply.
Frank Pavone (40:21)
And either they know how unscrupulous the abortion industry is or they don't. And that's what accounts for, you know, all this confusion. And like you say, in the middle, there are those who are firmly, firmly opposed, firmly in favor. And, most people are there in that conflicted middle.
Jacob Barr (40:38)
Yeah, I just want to echo what you said. yeah, see what an abortion is, you know, watch, watch one, uh, a recording of one so you can let that gravity, uh, let that experience take place. Uh, it makes me think of what Abby Johnson did in her book, unplanned. She was working for an abortion clinic. And then when she was pulled in to hold the ultrasound wand while an abortion was being performed, her
Frank Pavone (40:45)
Hmm.
Jacob Barr (41:06)
entire experience changed or her entire outlook on abortion changed because she saw what was on that ultrasound screen and experienced it. so how much, it would be, it seems like it's a prudent step to watch and have that experience, not in person, but on a recording just to see, in order to know the truth about what's really happening in that, know, what we're talking about. And then to hear those
testimonies of women hurt by abortion. That is, yeah, that sounds like that, that helps what people be equipped with what we're really talking about. So Father Frank, I want to ask you about a verse. And so this is a verse that my daughter brings up to me occasionally, which is Ephesians 6 12. It says,
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. How do you wrestle with this fight? when it comes to the spiritual layer of this fight and how our enemy may not be, it's not the person who works at Planned Parenthood, but it's the spiritual realm.
that is impacting this dark space.
Frank Pavone (42:33)
Yeah, I always say, you know, the folks that are doing the abortions, the folks that are advocating for it, they are not the enemy. They are captive to the enemy. What enemy are they captive to? The spirit darkness is very real. The devil is real, but his power is limited. So he can still do damage, but he can't ultimately win. That's the proper Christian framing and understanding of the devil. We see it throughout scripture, Jesus and the other.
the New Testament writers make it very clear we are battling against the devil. But when you take refuge in Christ and live in his spirit, you have all the protection you need to ⁓ be safe from him destroying you. Now what does that protection consist of and how do we get it? First of all, obviously prayer and making sure that we're actually possessing the spirit of Jesus. you know, different denominations believe different things about baptism. Okay, so let's
Let those differences be what they are, but we've got to be baptized. When we're baptized, the spirit is dwelling within us. We are living by the spirit, not according to the flesh. So we'll have different passions. We might want to be attracted to different pleasure or possessions or power or greed, whatever, pride. We cannot let ourselves be overcome by those things. We have to look at life from the point of view of God's spirit, service, generosity.
We don't look at other people as people we need to attack, but the fruits of the Spirit are love and joy and peace and patience and kindness, gentleness. And when we're living in this way, we're protecting ourselves spiritually. Then what is it that we understand to be true? It's the Word of God has to be the standard of truth. And the Word of God actually is Jesus. We have the written form of the Word, but the Word lives among us. So making sure that as Paul says, we bring every thought into captivity to Christ.
So the Word of God answers for us, what is right, what is wrong, what's the proper way to live, what happens after we die, how do we treat other people, how do we deal with our enemies? So living and conducting the spiritual war is a matter of making sure we are thinking and then to the best of our ability acting according to that Word of God, not letting ourselves be drawn by passions, but by the Spirit. And then,
realizing that we've got to take that gospel and that truth and that word and we have got to bring it to others. We've got to be evangelizing the faith, not just believing it, and we've got to make it transform our political system. That's where the great commission says, make disciples of the nations, teach them to carry out everything I've commanded you. So the political process then becomes part of that as well. So those are some of the elements of
that help us understand that verse, that it's not that there are spiritual forces at work here and they're very deceptive, very dark, and they want to destroy us. But if we take refuge in Christ, we already have the victory.
Jacob Barr (45:44)
That's good. So, Father Frank, let's transition into the next portion of this podcast. And I'd like you to talk about your desire to be reinstated to the clerical state in the Catholic Church.
Frank Pavone (45:52)
Yes.
Yes,
yes, that's right. Well, as you know, at the end of 2022, Pope Francis said, oh, you can't be a priest anymore. And this was kind of, you know, odd and strange and head scratching to a lot of people. And it still is because usually, you know, you get kicked out of the priesthood because you did something really, really bad. I got kicked out because I was doing something really, really good. And I wouldn't stop and step away from doing it. I mean, that was the it was actually a 21 year.
back and forth controversy where some in the church that didn't like what we were doing at Priest for Life wanted to try to get me to step back from this pro-life work full time. ⁓
I mean, long story short, I have the whole story posted on a website frfrankpavone.com so people can read all the back and forth all those 21 years. But the bottom line was, if you sum it all up, I was not only convinced, but I was already living for 25 years a vocation of priesthood in the service of the unborn with the blessing of John Paul II, with the blessing of
bishops and cardinals in the Vatican and all with their blessing. And then all of a sudden, you know, you get some bishops deciding, hey, you're a little bit, they're a little bit too big. They're a little bit too influential. They want to control everything. And so they tried to sideline me. It didn't work. It didn't work for, because number one, I wasn't just, I wasn't going to allow it. I wasn't going to step away from doing this work. never, never step away from it. And then number two, that the people
This wasn't just an idea that was in Father Frank's mind. The people of God rallied around me and around this work because they knew it wasn't about me. It was about saving the unborn, healing the wounds from abortion, and we were having success. So even when Pope Francis did that, I didn't have to step away from my work because we're independently funded. We rely on ordinary pro-life people like are listening right now.
to continue to support the work and we're independently governed. We have our own board. They tried to take over our board at a certain point, some of these bishops, but we didn't let them do that. So my team is united with me 100 % and therefore they said, well, you might not be in the clerical state anymore. You might not be wearing the collar or doing public mass.
but you're still saving the lives of these babies, you're helping us to save them, we're gonna continue, we want you to continue leading this work, we're gonna continue to work together, and that's the way it's been for these last three years. Should I be once again reinstated to the priesthood? Well, my position is there was never a reason to kick me out, so now we have a new pope, and it's perfectly within my rights, and I'm in the process of doing so, to ask him, could you please, you know, take a look at this yourself?
and reinstate me. It'll be in his hands to determine how and if and when and by what process that happens. But basically it boils down to a request of the pope. Not that I want my work to change. My work is not, I mean, this is the interesting thing. If a parish priest got kicked out of the priesthood, he lost his job, right? Because he's doing all day the work of know, priestly ministry. But I'm in a little different situation because
I'm, I'm, what am I doing? I'm broadcasting, I'm having conversations like we're having now. I'm leading prayer vigils at abortion clinics. I'm summoning meetings of pro-life leaders. I'm publishing. So none of that requires ordination. The fundamental pro-life work does not flow from ordination. Being an ordained priest and doing this work has a highly influential value.
people see a priest doing that, it is a reminder to them and a motivation to them that, this really is the work of the church. This is something I should get behind. That's what I want to be able to continue to exercise. My day-to-day activities will be the same, but that added dimension, if you will, of doing this as a priest is what is crucial. The question I have to ask of the church though is this.
I was very, very badly treated over the course of those 21 years of ⁓ battling back and forth, some, a minority, some within the hierarchy that didn't like what we were doing. ⁓ I was lied to, I was lied about, the goalposts were always shifting, I was very badly mistreated. And so my question in asking to be reinstated to the clerical state is, I want to be reinstated to priestly.
priestly ministry, I don't want to be reinstated to abuse. ⁓ And that's, you know, that's not so much my problem. That's going to be the problem of Pope Leo and the other authorities to decide whether or not they're going to protect me and my ministry ⁓ if they reinstate me. Because if people see at many, this will be my final point. Many people confuse this, especially, you know, those faithful Catholics that are watching, ⁓ you know,
It's inbred in us that we have a respect for our bishops, we have a respect for church authority, we got to be in union with our bishops. Sure, as long as the bishops are in union with Christ and they're not abusing their authority, what if somebody abuses their authority? And the church has, just like the government has, processes that you can go through to protect yourself against someone who is abusing their authority. And that's certainly...
something that many people learned through this experience, you know, can maintain your respect for the authority while at the same time not tolerating abuses. And that's hopefully a good lesson that comes out of this for everybody.
Jacob Barr (52:11)
Yeah, that's good. transitioning into another ⁓ question or thought is, do you wrestle with the Pope's comments on these pro-life comments regarding the death penalty and immigration and what comes as someone being pro-life or not?
Frank Pavone (52:37)
Yeah, the first way to deal with that is to recognize the context. That was an interview of a journalist that was not an official act of teaching. We have to get away from what I've, what I've termed magisterium by journalism. The magisterium of the church, the teaching function of the church is carried out in time tested ways. There are official church documents, there are official church
proclamations. The pope gives a homily. He's prepared the homily. He knows exactly what he's going to say. A journalist sticks a microphone in front of the pope. He doesn't know what they're going to ask. And he's talking off the top of his head. Not only that, but when you look at the question that led to this now this international
debate, you look at the question. They mentioned about Cardinal Cupich and giving an award, wanting to give an award to Senator Durbin who's so pro-abortion, etc. And the reporter said, how do you feel about this?
You know, I'll do respect to the Pope. What do I care how he feels about something? But that has nothing to do with the Catholic faith. How do you feel about this? Maybe the reporter could have asked, Your Holiness, how does church teaching, you see now it's a different point of reference, it's not how you feel. How does church teaching help us understand what's at stake in this situation? That's sort of how I would have asked the question.
But instead, how do you feel about this? Well, I feel I don't know the details of the case, but I feel, know, if someone's against abortion, but therefore the death penalty are not really pro-life. Okay. Now, how do you wrestle with that? Well, are we talking about church teaching? Because church teaching is pretty clear on both of those things. Abortion is an intrinsic evil. There's no circumstance that can ever allow it. Death penalty is not an intrinsic evil. There are some circumstances that could allow it. Even if you...
assert and frankly I do assert we shouldn't be using it. I don't think it's helpful to use the death penalty but be that as it may. That's a matter of opinion. The church teaching is it could be allowed in certain circumstances. Why? Because there's a very big difference between an individual choosing to kill her child and the state protecting the people by killing an aggressor.
That's not ⁓ an act of individual killing, ⁓ murdering someone. That is for the protection of life. So it's like, no, they're not the same. And as far as, well, you're not pro-life. You know what? I've always said, Jacob, that I might've even said it on some of our previous broadcasts, that the term pro-life is too big for its own good. I mean, think about it. Isn't every issue a pro-life issue ultimately? I mean, why would an issue
be an issue at all if it didn't impact human life. ⁓ You could talk about fixing the potholes on the city streets. To me, that's a pro-life issue because people can get hurt or even killed. know, car, big vehicle hits a pothole, swerves into the other lane, kill you, but it's a pro-life issue. So it's like, look, don't be saying, you if you're against the death penalty or if you're for the death penalty,
Jacob Barr (55:53)
All right.
Frank Pavone (56:08)
You know, you're not pro-life. Yeah, if you're for potholes, you're not pro-life either. Come on, this is not giving adequate attention to something that the church does clearly teach. And let me quote John Paul II in a document called Christi Fidelis Laegi. He wrote this, and this is official church teaching. The common outcry which is justly made on behalf of human rights.
For example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture, and we can throw in to immigration, John Paul said, is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right, and the condition for all other personal rights is not defended with maximum determination. That is what Dick Durbin needs to hear. That's what the Democrat Party needs to remember, that your advocacy
for immigrants is fake. If you're not advocating for those very same immigrants when they were in the first nine months of their life in the womb and you say those very same people could have been killed, you know what? We care more about the immigrants than you do. Because you only care about some of them. You only care about the ones you didn't kill in the womb. And Jacob, this is where, you know, no, it's simply not true that, you know, these issues are equivalent. They're not equivalent.
Whatever's happening at the border, whatever's happening with deportation, I think the Trump administration is doing a great job. But the fact of the matter is that there are not legal clinics by the hundreds decapitating and dismembering by the thousands ⁓ immigrants every day. No, there aren't any such clinics. There aren't any such laws. Meanwhile, but that is exactly what's being done to babies.
Jacob Barr (58:01)
Mm-hmm. That's really good. So I want to Transition into what you know a topic that sort of pulls in a lot of these ⁓ Discussions together so so based on Your your knowledge of the Bible or based on what you know of God's heart ⁓ Jesus calls us to love our enemies And it's good to forgive people to not harbor that hate they can eat eat someone alive
⁓ how do you wrestle with Erica Kirk forgiving the shooter, but yet the government still providing justice and, and, ⁓ providing justice, ⁓ for this scenario.
Frank Pavone (58:43)
Yes.
Yeah, and those two things are perfectly compatible and really you laid it out right there that ⁓ one is one's personal spiritual attitude towards another person. mean, she was a victim too, not just Charlie, she was. She was robbed of her husband, ⁓ of the father to her children. Her children were robbed. She's in a perfect position to be able to articulate
Okay, what is my personal, spiritual response to this going to be? And by embracing forgiveness, she takes the path of the greatest freedom, because unforgiveness is a burden to the person who refuses to forgive. Jesus talks to us about ⁓ forgiving and loving our enemies. That doesn't mean we have good feelings towards them. And it doesn't even mean that we don't seek restitution.
for what was done. It's a different realm than the role of the government. The role of the government is to protect all the people and as clear, if we're going to end political violence, a clear signal has to be sent that this is not going to be tolerated. This is why I believe that the ⁓ process that has begun, charges and prosecution and coming to a sentencing, ⁓
The things that have to be done now with this killer have got to be done swiftly. There can't be delay. We can't sit around and wait forever for years for this to happen. So the difference between one's personal spiritual approach and the government's responsibility, two different realms, and these things are completely compatible.
Jacob Barr (1:00:29)
That's good. think my video may have just stopped, we can keep going. Your video's working. So Father Frank, as we wrap up this podcast, would you share a prayer? And I will pray with you and ask those who are listening to also pray with you.
Frank Pavone (1:00:33)
It did.
Okay.
Yes.
Yes, let's pray. Well, Lord, we have considered so many things. We know that you are the God of Providence, the God of history. You are the God of healing, the God of life. You are the God of truth. You are the God of battle. To battle against evil, your son, Jesus Christ, has destroyed death. Your son, Jesus Christ, has conquered the lies of Satan. I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning, he said, and you have put him under our feet. So we thank you, Lord, for the victories we have in Christ.
And as we continue these very real battles against violence, against lies, against abortion, Lord, we know that you are with us, that you work through us, and that you call us to realize that we're not just working for victory. We're working from victory. We already start with the victory Jesus Christ has won for us in that we rejoice. Through that, we gain strength for the battle. And because of that,
We can have the peace and joy that come only from you and that no one in no circumstance can take away from us. Fill us with that peace and joy as we continue Lord God to give witness to your kingdom and journey in the gift of eternal life. We pray through Christ our Lord. Amen.
And okay. Welcome to the Pro Life Team podcast. I'm Jacob, but I'm here with Father Frank Pavone. And today we're going to be talking, well, starting off the conversation about HB7 out of Texas. ⁓ Father Frank, before we dive into that Texas law, for those who don't know about the work you've been doing and who you are in this movement, would you share some background about the passion and ⁓ energy that you bring to rescuing the unborn?
Frank Pavone (00:33)
Well, thanks Jacob. And thanks for your commitment and doing podcasts like these. It's always a great pleasure to be on with you and to see you at different events. So I got involved in the Pro-Life Movement when I was in high school. And it led to me eventually going into national leadership as director of Priests for Life, which actually is broader than the title suggests. It's not just for Catholic priests. It's not just for Catholics. It's a movement now, which is one of the largest pro-life organizations.
And what we do is we mobilize churches, we work in the political realm to elect pro-life candidates, we work for healing after abortion, we oversee the largest healing ministry in the world, we have ⁓ educational activities, we're a publishing arm, we have speakers that go around and talk at pro-life events. And as you have been involved with us, you've seen we bring leaders together, the national leaders in these beautiful meetings, strategy meetings.
four times a year. that's some of what I've been privileged to do. do broadcasting every day and we are just a movement which we describe it as a family of ministries. We try to keep both the church and the rest of society and our government officials keeping abortion top of their priority list. That's one of the things we're always trying to do. It's like, okay, it's not enough to be pro-life.
This has got to be priority number one if we're going to end this Holocaust.
Jacob Barr (02:06)
Awesome. So let's dive into this new Texas ⁓ pro-life law. ⁓ Can you describe the law and just share your thoughts, maybe describe what it is and how it's going to help?
Frank Pavone (02:12)
Yeah.
Yeah.
So to put this in context, you Texas has been a leading state. As a matter of fact, I was just recently with the Lieutenant Governor, Dan Patrick, he's a great man. And people might not realize, but Texas is unique in as much as the Lieutenant Governor has more of a role in the legislative process than in any other state. The Lieutenant Governor actually sets the legislative agenda.
You know, in most other states, you've got, you know, you've got a leader in the House, you've got a leader in the Senate, just like we have in the federal Congress. But Lieutenant Governor of Texas is a strong pro-life, pro-freedom guy. He's become a friend of mine and he's ⁓ just fantastic. So with that, as just a little bit of a background, with leadership like his and the governor and many pro-life legislators, Texas, a few years ago,
became one of the states where babies in the womb are protected throughout pregnancy. So we have had, it's a beautiful flowering, if you will, of the victory we had in the Dobbs decision, which said, hey, you wanna protect the unborn? The court's not gonna get in your way. That summarizes in common language what the Dobbs decision said. You wanna protect them? Go right ahead. So Texas went right ahead. Now that includes chemical abortion.
But there were some loopholes, okay, in terms especially of what we've started to see is this interstate and even international trafficking of these abortion drugs. Very dangerous. ⁓ And the federal government under Biden didn't help because they took away so many of the safeguards for women's health and safety and using these drugs. Of course, nevermind the safety of the baby.
But the point is that what happened most recently, just a matter of weeks ago, is that the governor signed into law a bill, like you said, HB 7, which says, look, we're gonna close these loopholes. And it targets especially the Mifepristone that's being mailed. 19, let me look at the stats here. Some 19,000 abortion pills are shipped into Texas every year.
illegally because again, Texas already protects these babies, but the loopholes are here in all of this, you know, this commerce in abortion drugs. And this new law says, you know what, we're going to penalize anyone who manufactures, distributes, mails or provides, that's the wording, abortion medication to Texas, even if it's somebody who's, who's mailing it from out of state, you know, this is not legal in Texas.
So any citizen now, and this is the mechanism that this new law puts into effect, any citizen can bring a lawsuit against somebody who is seen or caught doing any of these things. So, you you're receiving in the mail, your neighbor notices, hey, what are you doing? You know, or a friend has, know, I've got some of these abortion drugs here, you know. Anyone can initiate a lawsuit and say, you know what, you're breaking the law.
And the penalties could be like $100,000 of ⁓ fine against the person who's even just handing these drugs to somebody else. so Texas is closing the loopholes, it's cracking down, it's doing something, Jacob, which is a really, what I find so exciting about it is this, you've heard it, I've heard it, pro-life leaders, pro-life activists, pro-life citizens, kind of,
wondering, scratching their heads and wondering, with all these, how easy it is now to circulate abortion drugs, how do we get a handle on this? How do we start reining this in? How do we stop this? Well, Texas is given a big answer to that question.
Jacob Barr (06:25)
That's really good. Cause yeah, I remember having those thoughts, um, years ago and, I, and I would still say there's a lot of brainstorming that I feel like is left to be done, but you know, how do we, how do we filter the mail? How do we stop something from being shipped in these, um, in these discrete ways? And that, and this is, and this is the answer is to let private, this is one good answer is to let private citizens respond.
Frank Pavone (06:37)
yeah.
Jacob Barr (06:54)
who have, you in order to provide the teeth to the law, that's an amazing, and I think, yeah, so, and these drugs are designed to end life. I mean, if you think about different drugs that are illegal, a lot of drugs are dangerous. Illegal drugs are dangerous, but these are actually designed to end, to end the life of the child inside of that mother.
Frank Pavone (07:00)
precise.
Jacob Barr (07:22)
and then to expel the child from the mother. so why wouldn't, yeah, I mean, it makes sense for drugs of this level, of this danger, this, you know, that are poison ⁓ to be, yeah, it's sort of, it's interesting to think about how we want to stop fentanyl, we want to stop all sorts of illegal drugs. There's a desire because it hurts the health of the people who are taking it.
And then these are literally designed to end life. ⁓
Frank Pavone (07:55)
Well, you
you could say it this way, these are drugs that are designed to do exactly the opposite of what drugs are designed to do. It contradicts the purpose of medicine. And ⁓ not only that, but what Texas is saying is, hey, listen, you're going to take this into people's living rooms, then we're going to take the law into their living rooms, too. You know, we're going to take the enforcement, we should say, into their living rooms, too. So we're going to chase down this evil wherever it goes.
Jacob Barr (08:05)
Yeah.
Frank Pavone (08:24)
And that's, liked, I love that fighting spirit of Texas. And, you know, again, I think of Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick. He's a, he's a friend of President Trump. And it's like that fight, fight, fight spirit that's in him. And that's driving a lot of this.
Jacob Barr (08:36)
Yeah.
Yeah, I remember, wow, this might be from a decade ago. remember you were, um, you're, don't even know where I heard you say this, but I remember hearing you say something to the effect of, I'm not going to let up or, you know, slow down the fight. Um, and, you know, on protecting the unborn until the unborn are protected. I remember you've felt what someone was telling you to slow down. Um,
Frank Pavone (09:03)
Yes.
Yeah.
Jacob Barr (09:07)
step down, back off, relax. And I remember your response. How would you respond to that today if someone said, you need to stop defending the unborn with such veracity?
Frank Pavone (09:10)
Right.
I will know. But my response would be no. And to expound on it, it says, that's right. You know, the fight will stop when the fight is won. That's when it'll stop. And it's like, you know, I've also been criticized then, and we'll get into this more, I know it later in our discussion, but some church leaders who say, oh, Father Frank is too aggressive on abortion. And when I first heard that, my response was, and you I always try to maintain the utmost amount of respect, especially for authority. But I say, listen,
Jacob Barr (09:20)
Next
Yeah.
Frank Pavone (09:47)
As soon as abortion stops being aggressive on these unborn babies, you can talk to me about being aggressive, but my goodness. And that's why I love so much President Trump, because again, it's that fight, fight, fight mentality. That's what we need. It's not enough to have the right position. You know, a lot of people in the church, they have the right position on abortion. Even a lot of politicians, they all have right position, but that's not enough. Having the right position doesn't win the war. It's the fighting, the sustained, strategic, persevering fighting that wins the war.
Jacob Barr (10:17)
That's good. and I remember the, Texas had passed the heartbeat bill. ⁓ I think it was in 22, well, several years ago, a couple of years ago. And, and this is just simply, you know, patching the holes it seems like, or, responding to the, the shortcomings of that one with, you know, based on new insights of how people were getting around it.
Frank Pavone (10:23)
Yes.
They took several steps, and Florida, by the way, is doing the same thing. We've been moving more and more pro-life over recent years in terms of the legislation, but Texas had the heartbeat law, and then they went further and they said, we're gonna protect all the babies even before the heartbeat is detected. And now they're closing loopholes in terms of the chemical abortion and in terms of the private enforcement of this prohibition. So.
Yeah, they've been going stronger and stronger as time has gone on in these last few years. And they started all this before the Dobbs decision came down. When the Dobbs decision came down, of course, that supercharged it and gave them even more confidence, and rightly so.
Jacob Barr (11:21)
So can you speak about who this HB7 law in Texas, you who is it going after, you know, meaning like the manufacturers, the distributors, and then who is it not going after, meaning the women who may take the abortion pill?
Frank Pavone (11:29)
Okay, yes.
That's right.
Right.
That's a very important point, as you and I have discussed before. Pregnant women seeking out for themselves or taking the abortion drugs are exempt from being sued under HB7. So we're not targeting that mom. She's in enough distress. And she's not the primary perpetrator here anyway. It's the people who are pushing these drugs.
So you're talking about who can a citizen, again, anyone can bring a lawsuit in regard to this, but who are the targets? Doctors who prescribe it, companies who mail these pills, a family member or a friend who orders the abortion pills for their pregnant friend, they can be sued under this provision. And those are the basic categories, but not the mother herself.
Jacob Barr (12:34)
Yeah. And I think that's important because not all, but often, or sometimes the woman who is taking the abortion pill does not have informed consent. She has been manipulated. The messaging has fallen short for her to have informed consent of what is truly happening. there's just, I feel like our law is designed to not
Frank Pavone (12:47)
That's right.
Mm-hmm.
Jacob Barr (13:03)
attack innocent women or people. it's good to, you know, we don't want to put any innocent women through, yeah, into jail or to have, you know, it just feels like there's based on informed consent, not being regular when it comes to how people are treated in this space. It feels like that's a major concern over going after the women who are, who are taking these abortion pills.
Frank Pavone (13:29)
The whole climate, the whole culture, the whole environment we're in is blinding us, and I say us in general, women in society, all of us, to the reality of what abortion is. And that's why it's, we know that that baby deserves just as much protection as you and I do and anyone else does, but there is a uniqueness about abortion. It's not an exception to the fact that these babies are human.
It's an exception to the fact that normally people know and admit that murder is murder. So you're gonna shoot someone in the street or commit some other violent crime or lose a bomb or whatever. It's like people understand that's murder. But when it comes to abortion, it's the only form of murder that is so widespread denied. And that's why we're just not on an equal plane.
with our friends who say, well, you know, it's murder, so we treat the woman as a murderer. Well, not so fast. Of course it's murder. But is there any other form of murder that is more widely covered up and denied and people don't even believe that that's a human being? You gotta deal with that. That's what makes enforcement of abortion laws really in a category by itself.
Jacob Barr (14:49)
Yeah, and the father of lies has done a lot of lying about abortion and around abortion. And when it comes to dispelling false beliefs, when it comes to identifying and having truth prevail, this is a space where that still needs to happen.
Frank Pavone (14:55)
Yeah.
That's right. Exactly. the devil has a lot of allies in very, very influential sectors of society. You've got the whole media enterprise. Although we've been making progress, chipping away at media bias. We've been making great progress, especially under President Trump. But you've got the media bias. You've got the, you
Of course, for the longest time, the Supreme Court calling it a constitutional right, but then again, we've broken through that barrier now. But all this stuff has an effect over decades of time, and that's exactly what you're pointing to.
Jacob Barr (15:50)
So I'd like to step into the next chapter or section of this podcast and talk about Charlie Kirk for a moment. So we were at the Museum of the Bible. I was at your leadership meeting there. And near the end of the day, word came in from one of ⁓ your team members who was supporting the event saying he announced to the group that Charlie Kirk had been shot.
Frank Pavone (16:00)
⁓ yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Jacob Barr (16:19)
What were your thoughts and reactions at that time? then, yeah, go ahead and continue on as you as time has passed and you had, you've had more time to consider and process all that is represented with this ⁓ assassination or martyr, however you want to call it, ⁓ this attack on a Christian.
Frank Pavone (16:37)
Yeah. Yeah, I was,
well, I was angry. mean, I mean, there were some church leaders that didn't even know who Charlie was. But I not only knew well who he was, like all of us in the room did, but I knew him and we interacted and we communicated with each other and we would be on, at events together, I'd be on his program regularly. We would text one another occasionally. And it was like, we did stuff together. And
you know, all of those who can say that, can express, course, that, I mean, on one level, there's a personal sadness there at, at, ⁓ you know, and, and a sense of, of, you know, being offended because they're attacking a friend or an associate, ally. Secondly, it was a, a reaction for me of, of, you know, anger because, especially when it was announced a few hours later that he had, he had actually died.
⁓ The thought that kept running through my mind is we've been robbed. We've been robbed of a leader, a national treasure, an agent of change, a visionary, someone who was not only articulate, he was very good at articulating the message and inviting people into serious debate. And you can have serious debate on these serious issues if you have a level of goodwill that you're willing to talk.
And of course, Charlie, when he saw somebody had goodwill, he said, OK, on to the next person. We don't have time for this. know, because people, some of them weren't asking honest questions. But not only was Charlie good at the articulation of all of this, he was leading a movement. you know, as somebody put it, the left was enraged at him and he was killed not simply because he was speaking a powerful message, but because too many people were listening.
and they were responding to it. I mean, he and I worked together on elections and these abortion amendments that you and I were also dealing with prior to the November elections. he was raising up armies of people that were actually going to the polls and making a difference. So the sense of being robbed. And then also the other thought and feeling was that it was
How do we say this in the right way? It was like, okay, yes, this is the pattern. In other words, one can see the pattern of the left trying to, same thing, same reason they tried to assassinate President Trump. And they attacked, you know, back a few more years back, ⁓ Steve Scalise and a whole group of Republicans who were playing baseball. And it's like, what is the left doing?
It's the gospel message of the light came into the world, some preferred darkness. They hate the light. They don't want to go near the light. And in fact, they want to snuff it out. This is what the left does when they're losing, when they can't out debate somebody. And when they see the momentum on our side, they resort to murder.
Jacob Barr (19:53)
Yeah. So it's also interesting how some of the church leaders who did not know Charlie Kirk are now, some of them are, you know, hearing and seeing all of the footage of him on the campuses doing this work. And there's a lot of footage for someone to see. And then some are probably seeing the footage from that's, you know, that's slanted and cut in a way to try and ⁓
to minimize what he was doing. And it also seems very unique that there was this large reaction after his death of people celebrating his death. it was very, as someone who was trying to process what had just happened, it felt like there was this onslaught of people just posting these hateful ⁓ videos.
Frank Pavone (20:25)
Mm-hmm.
Jacob Barr (20:50)
And then there was this whole group of people getting fired for that posting of those hateful videos. And it just seemed like such a, you ⁓ know, wave after wave. And I'm still, feel like I'm still trying to process what, you know, what has happened.
Frank Pavone (21:03)
Yeah, I think
so. I think that's true. Where I think we're all still trying to process it. I mean, ⁓ I just feel that anger, justified anger every day. And it's like, this is so wrong. But you know, there's an old saying in Christianity that I've quoted a lot from the first day this happened. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of Christians. What that means is that when someone sacrifices his life for this, not that...
You go into that knowing that you're sacrificing your life, but you're not retreating from the truth and there are those that hate the truth so they'll attack you. You are, and then become an inspiration to others. And people say if that conviction is worth dying for, then it's worth living for. And so the blood of the martyrs makes the movement grow. I mean, he's having even more influence now after he has died.
than he did when he was alive. Not that he would have preferred this to happen, but God brings good out of evil. It remains evil, but God knows how to turn it to good. And like Charlie's widow said, Erica, they have no idea what they've unleashed. Now I was with over these recent days, some of the key leaders of different branches of Turning Point, because it has different branches. It has an educational branch, it has a faith branch, it has an action branch, and it's various others too.
And I was with these top guys and they were saying, you know, wouldn't believe how many people, how many countries, one guy told me in the education branch of it, 191 countries have reached out. And I said, you know, there aren't that many more countries in the world than that. You know, what is that? But it's something like 198. So it's like 191 countries. And it's like, wow, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. We're seeing that unfold before our very eyes. So it's...
You know, I've also talked about this from the point of view that we have to be careful of superficial calls for nonviolence. What I mean is it's easy to say, the political violence has to stop. And I think, and we've seen people on both sides of the aisle saying, yeah, political violence, that's not the way, that's certainly not the American way.
But those calls for peace and unity, for dialogue, like Charlie so championed and so forth, can be sometimes too superficial because if they ignore an underlying form of violence, which Charlie certainly did not ignore, in fact, he addressed it head on, the underlying form of violence is the violence that denies the very existence of truth.
Jacob Barr (23:37)
Mm-hmm.
Frank Pavone (23:59)
would destroy the very notion of morality, the violence that would deny the very existence of God. These are forms of violence because faith, morality and truth are under direct attack. There is a direct rebellion against these things. That's precisely what Charlie was fighting on the college campuses and through his political action. And it's like, think about the results. If you deny that there's truth, well then you make dialogue impossible. So you can't
call for dialogue and at the same time tolerate people who are denying truth. You can't call for unity and not address the attack on morality and God, which are the center of unity. Doesn't work. It doesn't work. We'd be going around in circles and deceiving ourselves and everybody else. So that's, would say, is my primary concern. I think this is a moment of opportunity
for people not only to reject political violence in the physical sense, but to reject the violence against truth, morality and faith.
Jacob Barr (25:07)
And I think an example of Charlie addressing one of these core issues that was an attack on God was when he would ask someone who disagreed, what is a woman? And when it comes to, know, when someone would say anyone can be a woman, that goes against what God has said in his word when it came to making them male and female.
It's, know, essentially that's attacking a pillar, ⁓ a pillar that's built on God's foundation or God's word. And when it comes to like, you know, saying a woman is, anyone can be a woman, that just simply creates this entire like, that's just an attack on God, I believe. And it has a lot of repercussions.
Frank Pavone (25:56)
Yes, it is.
Exactly. It has terrible repercussions because if you redefine that, I mean, I think it flows from, you can't say a man is a man a woman is a woman because we've been trying to say a baby's not a baby when it comes to the whole abortion thing. And that unleashes just, you can say anything about anything then. And then again, truth dissolves and what's left except chaos and fighting. So it has terrible repercussions and that has...
to get beyond this moment where people do feel an increasing amount of tension, people on both sides, they feel an increasing amount of instability. Of course, that's the goal, by the way, of those that want to transform this country into a communist nation. That's their goal, just destabilize everything. So a lot of these protests, know, they say when you study communism, the issue is never the issue.
So if you have a protest about Palestine, not about Palestine, George Floyd, this is not about him. It's about causing societal unrest. And they wanna destabilize everything so that they can just come in under a central government power and say, you need us now, we're gonna take over. ⁓ But yeah, these are some of the key things I think we have to be thinking about and talking about in the light of what happened in Charle.
Jacob Barr (27:19)
And so when I, so I went to the Memorial, ⁓ actually let me back up a moment. ⁓ so after I was, ⁓ flying back from Washington, DC, after the one 15 event, I landed in Phoenix and we were, and I did a search for like, where is turning point? And it was literally like within five minutes as I was driving down the highway and
Frank Pavone (27:25)
Okay.
⁓
Yeah.
Jacob Barr (27:46)
It just felt like everything was so close. Like all world events felt so close. ⁓ We used to work with one of the gentlemen that was on the stage. His name's Frank Turek with Cross Examine. We used to do some work for him and he was helping, he was one of Charlie's mentors when it came to, you know, going through ⁓ arguments for promoting, you know, promoting God's ⁓ truths and a variety of, ⁓ you know,
Frank Pavone (27:57)
Frank. OK.
Yeah.
Jacob Barr (28:16)
⁓ arguments and, and, ⁓ and then when I went, I went to the Memorial, ⁓ a few weeks later and we got there really early and it was a long day because we got there around 1 AM because it, and it was, there was like 20,000 people at 1 AM what, you know, in line, it was, it was a very busy event. and what was real, I think what was most interesting about that event was that
Frank Pavone (28:36)
Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah.
Jacob Barr (28:43)
There were a lot of government leaders who mentioned or talked about Jesus. Like that was, I think that's unique. And I know I have a limited amount of things to pull from when it comes to how that may be unique, but that seems very unique. It almost felt somewhat Old Testament unique when it came to like a government, know, a king in the Old Testament, you know, following Daniel's God or following, you know, the
Frank Pavone (28:51)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Jacob Barr (29:13)
you know, those were thrown into the fire, you know, tearing down their idols. And it just felt, it felt interesting. Like I felt really sort of bizarre in today's world that we had so many government officials of the highest level talking about Jesus because that was what Charlie talked about all the time. I mean, at every event it would come up.
Regularly, I mean it wouldn't be what the only thing you talked about but it was like it was like the driving force for why he did what he was doing ⁓
Frank Pavone (29:45)
Well,
I think you're really ⁓ zeroing in on something important here. My perspective on that is that, first of all, many of these government officials know full well, and they say it, that were it not for Charlie and the movement that he led, they wouldn't be in office right now. They would not be in office. So you combine that.
with a dynamic which you and I discussed prior to the election on some of our broadcasts, which is this, how many voters came to the conclusion when the election was approaching that this was no longer just the Republicans versus Democrats. This was good versus evil. And more and more believers were formulating the choice in the election in those terms. Believers
not just in Republican Party, but among the independents and among Democrats. When Charlie and I did work together regarding the elections, that was a frequent topic of conversation, that it was and it is a battle between good and evil. So this, see that very ⁓ monumental, unique ⁓ event of his memorial service as ⁓
kind of the next level of the unfolding of what happened in the election. Everyone starting to realize, hey, this is good versus evil. The forces of good mobilizing with that conviction in mind and electing the right people, people who would not have been elected were it not for the fact that leaders like Charlie and many others were saying, were framing it in those terms and were saying, you know what? And President Trump has said this even before all this happened.
says our nation only has Jesus as a savior. We're getting back to the environment here under which our country was founded in the first place. These founders were men of faith. And that's very clear from the history, very, very clear from the way they set up this government, not a theocracy, but a government where freedom of religion ⁓
was one of the very first purposes of establishing the government. And that's where I think that's how I think about that event. mean, these government leaders were not only mentioning Jesus, right? They were actually proclaiming the gospel. I mean, they were preaching better than a of pulpits. So it was a beautiful moment.
Jacob Barr (32:24)
It was, yeah, they were reflecting on how, you know, what Jesus meant to them. They were reflecting on how, um, it was just, they were authentically sharing about Jesus. wasn't like, uh, they, it was, it was beautiful and interesting and, and it was, and I'm, you know, it was really unique the way we have government leaders who normally try and have separation of church and state and not, and not that they're, know,
implementing a government mandate for church, but they're letting their faith show, you know, voice their faith in Jesus. And many of them admittedly said, you know, I'm not as strong of a Christian as Charlie was, but he's having an, you know, his faith is having an impact on me. And that was just very authentic. ⁓
And so I think just when people are authentically sharing about where they are and us, and people who are listening, maybe not putting the demand that they have to say things perfectly, but it's okay for them to say things authentically. I think that's really preferable because that's true. It's true for someone to share where they are in their faith journey.
Frank Pavone (33:27)
Right.
And it's where they are more and more politically in the sense that they realize, know, especially you take somebody like Marco Rubio, okay, he did a beautiful proclamation of the gospel at that service. I mean, think what this man is dealing with, Secretary of State. I mean, the peace of the world in many ways goes through his desk. And it's like, what a heavy responsibility. I was on a call of faith leaders, ⁓
Just prior to, during the very days when the big beautiful bill was coming towards a final vote and President Trump was on the phone all day long with members of the Senate and we had this call from faith leaders and Marco Rubio happened to walk by in the West Wing where the broadcast was emanating from and he hopped on the phone with us and he said, listen, said, none of this can work.
without faith in God, Jesus. He says, I'm unashamed to talk about that. We've got to be convinced. And he was saying to us as faith leaders, he said, don't think it's just about what we in the State Department or in the White House are doing. This nation survives because of you. and I think what's happening is that when we see events like that memorial service,
We're seeing the expression of this conviction that these government leaders know that the faith is not something extraneous to their job. They can only get their job done, ⁓ ultimately with the acknowledgement of God and for most of them, the Christian faith.
Jacob Barr (35:19)
Good. So I was talking with my wife last night about ⁓ different positions on abortion. And we were reflecting on how there's, you some people are against abortion because it is evil. And then there's some people who are for abortion, but then there's also this group in the middle that seemed like they have, they have bought into one of these lies. they're, they are uninformed.
Maybe they're leaning one way the other, but there's like this gray zone in the middle where people are uninformed about the truth of what is being aborted. Or when does life begin? There's all these questions that they bring up and some people have accepted a false belief about one thing, but then their position's very much built on sand where it shifts.
based on someone pushing on it. What are your thoughts on the different positions when it comes to those for abortion, those completely against abortion, and how would you wrestle with these people in the middle who are shifting so quickly when pushed?
Frank Pavone (36:35)
Many people are conflicted about this because as Americans we believe in both sides of the equation. That is freedom, choice on one side, and life on the other. And in the American spirit and DNA, if you will, those two things are not supposed to be in tension with each other. It's supposed to be together. So our declaration says life, liberty. All right, there it is, life and freedom.
are joined together as rights given by the same one God. So we get a little uncomfortable right from the start when we're presented with a problem that seems to put in opposition to each other two very fundamental, one might say the most fundamental elements of the American spirit. That's why there's a conflict here. And people have different positions based on their understanding
of what abortion actually is. So we have to reframe for people what is going on here. So for example, is it a battle between the mother's freedom and the child's life? Or is the battle perhaps between mother, father, and baby together on one side and an unscrupulous destructive abortion industry on the other? Not only unscrupulous and
and destructive, but unregulated largely. That's the real conflict. The abortion industry is destroying and harming both the mother and the baby and the father through their aggressive marketing of the abortion procedure, including the drugs that we talked about in the first part of this program. ⁓ If they can reframe it that way, if they can reframe their understanding of the woman who's getting an abortion as not somebody who's exercising her freedom of choice.
I we work all the time with people who've had abortions. They didn't get up that morning and say, I'm gonna exercise my freedom of choice today. They got up that morning saying, I have no freedom and no choice. I hate what's gonna happen today. Worst day of my life. I don't wanna do this. I know it's wrong, but I feel trapped. All right, if people have that understanding, then it's like, okay, wait a minute. We've gotta help this woman not to exercise her freedom of choice, but to find the better options other than killing her child.
And then there's the proper framing of what abortion is in the first place. You know, I say to people, we're having a fake debate on abortion. We're talking, we say the word, we're thinking about the killing of a baby. The other side says the word, they're thinking about the constitution, women's health, freedom. Well, we're not opposed to those things. We're opposed to baby killing. So to ask people who think they have an opinion on abortion, have you ever seen one? That's why we have the website, lookatabortion.org.
It's just, maybe if we started with that, or we start with the testimonies of Silent No More, and people can find these at AbortionTestimonies.com. So look at abortion, see what happens to the baby, and then AbortionTestimonies.com, listen to what happens to the mother. Then we'll have the starting point to have an authentic, ⁓
debate, conversation, working through, however one wants to phrase it, working through and trying to solve this problem. But it's those different images and those different framings that account for these different positions. Either people know who that baby is or they don't. Either they know what abortion does to that baby or they don't. Either they know what's going on with that woman or they don't.
Jacob Barr (39:56)
Thank you.
But it's so simply.
Frank Pavone (40:21)
And either they know how unscrupulous the abortion industry is or they don't. And that's what accounts for, you know, all this confusion. And like you say, in the middle, there are those who are firmly, firmly opposed, firmly in favor. And, most people are there in that conflicted middle.
Jacob Barr (40:38)
Yeah, I just want to echo what you said. yeah, see what an abortion is, you know, watch, watch one, uh, a recording of one so you can let that gravity, uh, let that experience take place. Uh, it makes me think of what Abby Johnson did in her book, unplanned. She was working for an abortion clinic. And then when she was pulled in to hold the ultrasound wand while an abortion was being performed, her
Frank Pavone (40:45)
Hmm.
Jacob Barr (41:06)
entire experience changed or her entire outlook on abortion changed because she saw what was on that ultrasound screen and experienced it. so how much, it would be, it seems like it's a prudent step to watch and have that experience, not in person, but on a recording just to see, in order to know the truth about what's really happening in that, know, what we're talking about. And then to hear those
testimonies of women hurt by abortion. That is, yeah, that sounds like that, that helps what people be equipped with what we're really talking about. So Father Frank, I want to ask you about a verse. And so this is a verse that my daughter brings up to me occasionally, which is Ephesians 6 12. It says,
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. How do you wrestle with this fight? when it comes to the spiritual layer of this fight and how our enemy may not be, it's not the person who works at Planned Parenthood, but it's the spiritual realm.
that is impacting this dark space.
Frank Pavone (42:33)
Yeah, I always say, you know, the folks that are doing the abortions, the folks that are advocating for it, they are not the enemy. They are captive to the enemy. What enemy are they captive to? The spirit darkness is very real. The devil is real, but his power is limited. So he can still do damage, but he can't ultimately win. That's the proper Christian framing and understanding of the devil. We see it throughout scripture, Jesus and the other.
the New Testament writers make it very clear we are battling against the devil. But when you take refuge in Christ and live in his spirit, you have all the protection you need to ⁓ be safe from him destroying you. Now what does that protection consist of and how do we get it? First of all, obviously prayer and making sure that we're actually possessing the spirit of Jesus. you know, different denominations believe different things about baptism. Okay, so let's
Let those differences be what they are, but we've got to be baptized. When we're baptized, the spirit is dwelling within us. We are living by the spirit, not according to the flesh. So we'll have different passions. We might want to be attracted to different pleasure or possessions or power or greed, whatever, pride. We cannot let ourselves be overcome by those things. We have to look at life from the point of view of God's spirit, service, generosity.
We don't look at other people as people we need to attack, but the fruits of the Spirit are love and joy and peace and patience and kindness, gentleness. And when we're living in this way, we're protecting ourselves spiritually. Then what is it that we understand to be true? It's the Word of God has to be the standard of truth. And the Word of God actually is Jesus. We have the written form of the Word, but the Word lives among us. So making sure that as Paul says, we bring every thought into captivity to Christ.
So the Word of God answers for us, what is right, what is wrong, what's the proper way to live, what happens after we die, how do we treat other people, how do we deal with our enemies? So living and conducting the spiritual war is a matter of making sure we are thinking and then to the best of our ability acting according to that Word of God, not letting ourselves be drawn by passions, but by the Spirit. And then,
realizing that we've got to take that gospel and that truth and that word and we have got to bring it to others. We've got to be evangelizing the faith, not just believing it, and we've got to make it transform our political system. That's where the great commission says, make disciples of the nations, teach them to carry out everything I've commanded you. So the political process then becomes part of that as well. So those are some of the elements of
that help us understand that verse, that it's not that there are spiritual forces at work here and they're very deceptive, very dark, and they want to destroy us. But if we take refuge in Christ, we already have the victory.
Jacob Barr (45:44)
That's good. So, Father Frank, let's transition into the next portion of this podcast. And I'd like you to talk about your desire to be reinstated to the clerical state in the Catholic Church.
Frank Pavone (45:52)
Yes.
Yes,
yes, that's right. Well, as you know, at the end of 2022, Pope Francis said, oh, you can't be a priest anymore. And this was kind of, you know, odd and strange and head scratching to a lot of people. And it still is because usually, you know, you get kicked out of the priesthood because you did something really, really bad. I got kicked out because I was doing something really, really good. And I wouldn't stop and step away from doing it. I mean, that was the it was actually a 21 year.
back and forth controversy where some in the church that didn't like what we were doing at Priest for Life wanted to try to get me to step back from this pro-life work full time. ⁓
I mean, long story short, I have the whole story posted on a website frfrankpavone.com so people can read all the back and forth all those 21 years. But the bottom line was, if you sum it all up, I was not only convinced, but I was already living for 25 years a vocation of priesthood in the service of the unborn with the blessing of John Paul II, with the blessing of
bishops and cardinals in the Vatican and all with their blessing. And then all of a sudden, you know, you get some bishops deciding, hey, you're a little bit, they're a little bit too big. They're a little bit too influential. They want to control everything. And so they tried to sideline me. It didn't work. It didn't work for, because number one, I wasn't just, I wasn't going to allow it. I wasn't going to step away from doing this work. never, never step away from it. And then number two, that the people
This wasn't just an idea that was in Father Frank's mind. The people of God rallied around me and around this work because they knew it wasn't about me. It was about saving the unborn, healing the wounds from abortion, and we were having success. So even when Pope Francis did that, I didn't have to step away from my work because we're independently funded. We rely on ordinary pro-life people like are listening right now.
to continue to support the work and we're independently governed. We have our own board. They tried to take over our board at a certain point, some of these bishops, but we didn't let them do that. So my team is united with me 100 % and therefore they said, well, you might not be in the clerical state anymore. You might not be wearing the collar or doing public mass.
but you're still saving the lives of these babies, you're helping us to save them, we're gonna continue, we want you to continue leading this work, we're gonna continue to work together, and that's the way it's been for these last three years. Should I be once again reinstated to the priesthood? Well, my position is there was never a reason to kick me out, so now we have a new pope, and it's perfectly within my rights, and I'm in the process of doing so, to ask him, could you please, you know, take a look at this yourself?
and reinstate me. It'll be in his hands to determine how and if and when and by what process that happens. But basically it boils down to a request of the pope. Not that I want my work to change. My work is not, I mean, this is the interesting thing. If a parish priest got kicked out of the priesthood, he lost his job, right? Because he's doing all day the work of know, priestly ministry. But I'm in a little different situation because
I'm, I'm, what am I doing? I'm broadcasting, I'm having conversations like we're having now. I'm leading prayer vigils at abortion clinics. I'm summoning meetings of pro-life leaders. I'm publishing. So none of that requires ordination. The fundamental pro-life work does not flow from ordination. Being an ordained priest and doing this work has a highly influential value.
people see a priest doing that, it is a reminder to them and a motivation to them that, this really is the work of the church. This is something I should get behind. That's what I want to be able to continue to exercise. My day-to-day activities will be the same, but that added dimension, if you will, of doing this as a priest is what is crucial. The question I have to ask of the church though is this.
I was very, very badly treated over the course of those 21 years of ⁓ battling back and forth, some, a minority, some within the hierarchy that didn't like what we were doing. ⁓ I was lied to, I was lied about, the goalposts were always shifting, I was very badly mistreated. And so my question in asking to be reinstated to the clerical state is, I want to be reinstated to priestly.
priestly ministry, I don't want to be reinstated to abuse. ⁓ And that's, you know, that's not so much my problem. That's going to be the problem of Pope Leo and the other authorities to decide whether or not they're going to protect me and my ministry ⁓ if they reinstate me. Because if people see at many, this will be my final point. Many people confuse this, especially, you know, those faithful Catholics that are watching, ⁓ you know,
It's inbred in us that we have a respect for our bishops, we have a respect for church authority, we got to be in union with our bishops. Sure, as long as the bishops are in union with Christ and they're not abusing their authority, what if somebody abuses their authority? And the church has, just like the government has, processes that you can go through to protect yourself against someone who is abusing their authority. And that's certainly...
something that many people learned through this experience, you know, can maintain your respect for the authority while at the same time not tolerating abuses. And that's hopefully a good lesson that comes out of this for everybody.
Jacob Barr (52:11)
Yeah, that's good. transitioning into another ⁓ question or thought is, do you wrestle with the Pope's comments on these pro-life comments regarding the death penalty and immigration and what comes as someone being pro-life or not?
Frank Pavone (52:37)
Yeah, the first way to deal with that is to recognize the context. That was an interview of a journalist that was not an official act of teaching. We have to get away from what I've, what I've termed magisterium by journalism. The magisterium of the church, the teaching function of the church is carried out in time tested ways. There are official church documents, there are official church
proclamations. The pope gives a homily. He's prepared the homily. He knows exactly what he's going to say. A journalist sticks a microphone in front of the pope. He doesn't know what they're going to ask. And he's talking off the top of his head. Not only that, but when you look at the question that led to this now this international
debate, you look at the question. They mentioned about Cardinal Cupich and giving an award, wanting to give an award to Senator Durbin who's so pro-abortion, etc. And the reporter said, how do you feel about this?
You know, I'll do respect to the Pope. What do I care how he feels about something? But that has nothing to do with the Catholic faith. How do you feel about this? Maybe the reporter could have asked, Your Holiness, how does church teaching, you see now it's a different point of reference, it's not how you feel. How does church teaching help us understand what's at stake in this situation? That's sort of how I would have asked the question.
But instead, how do you feel about this? Well, I feel I don't know the details of the case, but I feel, know, if someone's against abortion, but therefore the death penalty are not really pro-life. Okay. Now, how do you wrestle with that? Well, are we talking about church teaching? Because church teaching is pretty clear on both of those things. Abortion is an intrinsic evil. There's no circumstance that can ever allow it. Death penalty is not an intrinsic evil. There are some circumstances that could allow it. Even if you...
assert and frankly I do assert we shouldn't be using it. I don't think it's helpful to use the death penalty but be that as it may. That's a matter of opinion. The church teaching is it could be allowed in certain circumstances. Why? Because there's a very big difference between an individual choosing to kill her child and the state protecting the people by killing an aggressor.
That's not ⁓ an act of individual killing, ⁓ murdering someone. That is for the protection of life. So it's like, no, they're not the same. And as far as, well, you're not pro-life. You know what? I've always said, Jacob, that I might've even said it on some of our previous broadcasts, that the term pro-life is too big for its own good. I mean, think about it. Isn't every issue a pro-life issue ultimately? I mean, why would an issue
be an issue at all if it didn't impact human life. ⁓ You could talk about fixing the potholes on the city streets. To me, that's a pro-life issue because people can get hurt or even killed. know, car, big vehicle hits a pothole, swerves into the other lane, kill you, but it's a pro-life issue. So it's like, look, don't be saying, you if you're against the death penalty or if you're for the death penalty,
Jacob Barr (55:53)
All right.
Frank Pavone (56:08)
You know, you're not pro-life. Yeah, if you're for potholes, you're not pro-life either. Come on, this is not giving adequate attention to something that the church does clearly teach. And let me quote John Paul II in a document called Christi Fidelis Laegi. He wrote this, and this is official church teaching. The common outcry which is justly made on behalf of human rights.
For example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture, and we can throw in to immigration, John Paul said, is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right, and the condition for all other personal rights is not defended with maximum determination. That is what Dick Durbin needs to hear. That's what the Democrat Party needs to remember, that your advocacy
for immigrants is fake. If you're not advocating for those very same immigrants when they were in the first nine months of their life in the womb and you say those very same people could have been killed, you know what? We care more about the immigrants than you do. Because you only care about some of them. You only care about the ones you didn't kill in the womb. And Jacob, this is where, you know, no, it's simply not true that, you know, these issues are equivalent. They're not equivalent.
Whatever's happening at the border, whatever's happening with deportation, I think the Trump administration is doing a great job. But the fact of the matter is that there are not legal clinics by the hundreds decapitating and dismembering by the thousands ⁓ immigrants every day. No, there aren't any such clinics. There aren't any such laws. Meanwhile, but that is exactly what's being done to babies.
Jacob Barr (58:01)
Mm-hmm. That's really good. So I want to Transition into what you know a topic that sort of pulls in a lot of these ⁓ Discussions together so so based on Your your knowledge of the Bible or based on what you know of God's heart ⁓ Jesus calls us to love our enemies And it's good to forgive people to not harbor that hate they can eat eat someone alive
⁓ how do you wrestle with Erica Kirk forgiving the shooter, but yet the government still providing justice and, and, ⁓ providing justice, ⁓ for this scenario.
Frank Pavone (58:43)
Yes.
Yeah, and those two things are perfectly compatible and really you laid it out right there that ⁓ one is one's personal spiritual attitude towards another person. mean, she was a victim too, not just Charlie, she was. She was robbed of her husband, ⁓ of the father to her children. Her children were robbed. She's in a perfect position to be able to articulate
Okay, what is my personal, spiritual response to this going to be? And by embracing forgiveness, she takes the path of the greatest freedom, because unforgiveness is a burden to the person who refuses to forgive. Jesus talks to us about ⁓ forgiving and loving our enemies. That doesn't mean we have good feelings towards them. And it doesn't even mean that we don't seek restitution.
for what was done. It's a different realm than the role of the government. The role of the government is to protect all the people and as clear, if we're going to end political violence, a clear signal has to be sent that this is not going to be tolerated. This is why I believe that the ⁓ process that has begun, charges and prosecution and coming to a sentencing, ⁓
The things that have to be done now with this killer have got to be done swiftly. There can't be delay. We can't sit around and wait forever for years for this to happen. So the difference between one's personal spiritual approach and the government's responsibility, two different realms, and these things are completely compatible.
Jacob Barr (1:00:29)
That's good. think my video may have just stopped, we can keep going. Your video's working. So Father Frank, as we wrap up this podcast, would you share a prayer? And I will pray with you and ask those who are listening to also pray with you.
Frank Pavone (1:00:33)
It did.
Okay.
Yes.
Yes, let's pray. Well, Lord, we have considered so many things. We know that you are the God of Providence, the God of history. You are the God of healing, the God of life. You are the God of truth. You are the God of battle. To battle against evil, your son, Jesus Christ, has destroyed death. Your son, Jesus Christ, has conquered the lies of Satan. I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning, he said, and you have put him under our feet. So we thank you, Lord, for the victories we have in Christ.
And as we continue these very real battles against violence, against lies, against abortion, Lord, we know that you are with us, that you work through us, and that you call us to realize that we're not just working for victory. We're working from victory. We already start with the victory Jesus Christ has won for us in that we rejoice. Through that, we gain strength for the battle. And because of that,
We can have the peace and joy that come only from you and that no one in no circumstance can take away from us. Fill us with that peace and joy as we continue Lord God to give witness to your kingdom and journey in the gift of eternal life. We pray through Christ our Lord. Amen.