SPEAKER_03 0:01

This is a stranger the five shining brighter eyes of the flame. And I don't know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 5:10

Sure. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

You know, we actually uh just prepared a lecture for this for the American Association of Christian Counselors in September, which will be uh in Nashville, Tennessee at the Grand Old Opry, and they have 7,000 members, which are going to be there for the lecture. Um, so I did a lot of research on this and a lot of study, and we actually were in Court d'Allain, Idaho, which is where our marketing team is, and they handle all of our video productions, and we were going to just record a ninth chapter for our curriculum, but there was so much information that we recorded chapters nine and ten. So now we have a 10-chapter video curriculum. Because I, as an obstetrician and not an expert in mental health, we you know, a lot of these things were just uh not in my wheelhouse. And then when you look at the bias in the United States regarding mental health uh being affected by abortion, it's just such universal bias. And you look at the data worldwide, and they're honest with the data. We're just not honest with our data.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

Yeah. Well, let's get us let's get started. I might even use that as the intro. Um so yeah, Bill, thank you for being here on the ProLife Team podcast. Um yeah, let's just keep diving in. I'm I'm gonna keep that intro you just went through. I think that's a good introduction to how we're yeah, how we're going to address today's topic, which is the harm that comes from abortion. So tell us more.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Well, we know that abortion causes harm, both physically and to the mental health of men and women. We've discussed about the physical harm that men and women undergo when it comes to specifically the abortion pill. We just found out from the Ethics and Public Policy Center article that was released on April 28th that the risk of severe or life-threatening injury to a woman after she's taken the abortion pill is twenty-two times higher than what we had been told previously. It's not less than 0.5%, it's 11%, which is huge. But as I've done some study on the mental health impact, we realize that there is a huge increase in the mental health impact on women, and a lot of times this is not just years, but it can be decades after they've had the abortion performed, and they've had this sense of loss. And a lot of women they don't want to bring this up with their friends, especially now that you have the abortion pill so available. A lot of times your parents don't know, your partner might not know, your future partner might not know about the past. A lot of these women maybe have been saved and they are now serving in ministries in the church, and that's a tough you know subject, and especially when your spouse doesn't even know about that past. But there's a lot of healing that's needed. In fact, there are lots of w women who've been interviewed who have had an abortion or have used the abortion bill, and they can go back 20, 25 years and said every aspect of their lives has been affected by that previous abortion. Well, you know, re healing comes from forgiveness, true forgiveness comes through the blood of Jesus Christ, which is why this is an issue that needs to be addressed from our pulpits and in our churches so that healing can begin for these ladies and men.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

Yeah, and it's and I and I think it's good to emphasize how healing is available for those who have been injured and on our and you know, by abortion or by something that's leading them towards abortion. I think healing is available, uh yeah, it's good to emphasize that healing from God is available at any point along this journey. Um and it's good to hear the stories of those who have been harmed so that other people can can um be protected or or be buffered from choosing that same harm for themselves by hearing this testimony of someone else with the goal of helping someone else avoid repeating that that dangerous experience of an abortion. So tell us more about yeah, the the mental, the you know, what are your what are all your thoughts on this and how do you want to go about talking about it?

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Well, it affects women, but it also affects men. Um and a lot of times men are left out of this picture. I mean, the role of men, first of all, is to be a protector and a defender, and that is their God-given role. And men often will not even have any input on the fate of their child in the mother's womb. And so men are suffering as well. And so women are suffering and being hurt, and men are suffering, and there's a huge mental health impact on this. Just when you overall look at mental health and depression, about 13% of all people that have been diagnosed and are experiencing dealing with depression at any one time. But when you look at the age categories, and you specifically look at women between the ages of 12 and 19, 24% of those women are dealing with depression. When you look at women between the ages of 20 and 30, 19% of those women are dealing with depression. So we have a huge group of women between ages of 12 and 30 which are dealing with depression. But this is also the most fertile age category between 12 and 30. And uh, you know, when we look at 16% of the women have been diagnosed with depression just as the overall prevalence, meanwhile, men have about 10% of men will have a diagnosis of depression. But when you look at what are the causes of depression, well, change. I mean, we always hear that phrase change is good. No, change can sometimes be bad. Um loss of stability, you know, having a a change as far as your living situation. Yeah, that's a big change. But it can also, you know, lead to depression with dealing with that. Uh death death of uh of a parent, where statistically you and I are probably gonna someday bury our parents. That's just the stats. Um death of a spouse, the death of a child, god forbid, can be uh incredibly mentally traumatic when you've lost a child and failed relationships. I mean, you look at a somebody who's been with somebody maybe through high school and college and maybe med school and they think that they have a dream coming up, and then uh what if the guy all of a sudden decides after being together for 10 or 12 years, where a woman is invested into him, or a guy invested into a a woman? Yeah, what if they decide that, well, you know what, this isn't for me? That's a huge change, and that's a huge trigger for having a sense of depression, um, loss of a job. I mean, what am I gonna do with my life? Am I gonna find something in the same career? Um, or do I have to find a totally different career? How am I gonna pay my rent this month? How am I gonna pay my car payment, my insurance? What am I gonna do for insurance? Divorce. I mean, I have a relative who's recently gone through a divorce and incredibly traumatic. But then when you look at pregnancy, pregnancy can be a huge change. You know, if you're looking to be pregnant, boy, it's a wonderful change and you're excited as can be. But then what if you weren't planning on getting pregnant? Well, this is a huge life-changing moment. And, you know, when it comes to pregnancy, my wife and I our first two pregnancies resulted in miscarriage. Um, we had our first pregnancy when I was in medical, and actually I was in my residency training, and we were all excited. Yeah, of course, we'd been working to get pregnant, we're finally pregnant, and then sadly we started to have some spotting, then some heavier bleeding. We did an ultrasound and we had lost that baby, and yeah, incredibly traumatic. We'd never even seen uh an ultrasound of a beating heart, but all of a sudden we knew what our first day of her lent menstrual period was, we knew how far along we were, we knew what the due date was, and you start to make changes, and you start to make plans. And when you all of a sudden that plan gets changed, change is not always good, and it was incredibly depressing. But then we got pregnant a second time, and we got pregnant the second time, you know, we had a heartbeat and we celebrated, but then a couple weeks later, bleeding spotting, you know, and we lost that pregnancy again. And then you start to wonder after two, am I ever we ever gonna have a child? And so we had another daughter, then a miscarriage, then another daughter, and then a fourth miscarriage. So you can imagine when a woman becomes pregnant and then they go through what they may have experienced as far as a miscarriage, and there's nothing that you can do. Twenty percent of all pregnancies will result in a miscarriage. That's just the statistics. But what do you how does it affect you mentally when 100% of the result of losing a pregnancy is because of a decision that you made, not just something that happened, but you would have had a baby. And this affects the men that were the fathers, but this also can affect the grandfathers. We speak at a lot of uh men's uh you know uh retreats. And I was approached by a man who was in his 60s, and we were talking about the practice that I had taken over in 1999, and uh it was an abortion clinic, and we stopped all the abortions. Well, he said that two years before I took it over, his daughter was 17 and was pregnant. And he said, I asked her, What do you want to do? And she goes, I'm going to the University of Alabama in the in the fall, I can't take a baby with me. He said, I'd never heard a message from the pulpit on, what do you do when your daughter comes and says, Daddy, I'm pregnant? He said, you know, what ended up happening is that she wanted an abortion. He says, I drove my daughter to the abortion clinic because she was 17. I had to sign the consent. He said, back in 1997, we didn't swipe credit cards. He goes, I got out my checkbook, and he says, I wrote a check for$250, and we went back and we did an ultrasound. He said, We did the ultrasound. He says, All he remembered was a black circle with something white flickering on the inside. He goes, That was my first grandchild. He said, I then watched my daughter go up the stairs. She was up there for a half hour, and she came back down forever a changed person. He says, She no longer wants anything to do decades later, she doesn't want anything to do with the church, she doesn't want anything to do with him. He says, Not only was that my first grandchild, he goes, That was my only grandchild. And he says, you know, the sins can be generational. He says, I don't know if me taking my daughter to have an abortion, signing my name twice, paying for it, put her on a path where she didn't want to have a relationship with me. He says, She didn't want to have you know any more pregnancies or children. He goes, So now I'm in my sixties, and he says, I don't have a grandchild because the decision that I that I made. He goes, I go to church every Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday. And he says, I've never heard a message from the pulpit on what do you do when your daughter says, Daddy, I'm pregnant, or what kind of you know, healing from the emotional trauma is available when somebody is a Christian. And he says, I'm a saved man. He says, but I listen to you talk, he said, for the first time, I realized I need to repent from this. And he says, That's how healing begins, is we need to repent. And that's what the start was. He says, for the first time in over two decades, I just quietly prayed. And he says, I know that sin was forgiven, but he says, I repented, and I thank God for saving me and for that gift of salvation. He says, for the first time in decades, I actually feel a sense of relief. But you know, we have 25% of women here in the United States who have had an abortion. And that number is, of course, lower than the reality because there are over 630,000 abortions performed each year through the abortion pill. And you know, if your daughter has a cell phone, she has access to the abortion pill. Even if she doesn't have a credit card, she has access to the abortion pill. But you know, with these 25% of the population that have had an abortion, so, so many of them are still hurting from that time. There is the emotional scarring, there's the physical scarring, there's that sense of loss, that sense of hiding something from your family and friends, and maybe even your current spouse. Your current spouse might not know that you were pregnant before and that you took the abortion pill. So it's really, you know, a life that leads to deception. And, you know, we just need to be able to meet the needs of these women. And as far as counselors and psychiatrists, we're speaking to 7,000 counselors coming up next month. It's amazing how many times a woman or a man will go into their primary care position and say, I'm having some symptoms of depression. Well, okay, you know, why don't you take this prosectic this old and and give me a call in a couple of weeks? So we have this knee jerk in medicine where, you know, it's like if somebody is experiencing pain, we don't just give them a narcotic. We want to figure out what's the source of your pain. Maybe you have a nail that's sticking out of your hip from a fall, who knows? But we need to address the source of the pain. So before we start giving antidepressants, anxiolytics, and medication or people resorting to treating themselves with alcohol or other things, we need to go back and really when did these symptoms begin? Because without knowing when they began and what caused them, we're really not going to begin to truly treat them.

SPEAKER_04 19:18

Can you speak more about you know the value of a uh of counseling when it comes to you know uh h someone holding the secret, you know, keeping it buried, keeping it uh uh tightly uh under under reps compared to sharing, confessing, praying, talking to someone who is kind and uh reflecting God back.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Oh, absolutely. Well, first it starts with repentance. Repentance is where healing begins. Repentance leads to redemption, and repentance and re and redemption is what leads to restoration. You look at Philippians 3 13, and what does Paul say? He says, forget about those things which lie behind and straining towards what lies ahead. So when we are saved and our sins are forgiven, that's an amazing I mean we all deserve hell. I deserve hell, you deserve hell. We all have fallen short of the grace of God and we are sinners, every one of us, and we're sinners from that moment of conception. Even though we are created in the image of God, we are conceived with a sin nature as well, where you know we all deserve eternal damnation and separation from God. So we first need to realize that we have this sin, but then when we are saved, it is forgotten. And when you are thinking about the sins of our past or the bad decisions we've made, we we've all said things that like, oh, why did I say that? That was stupid. Why did I do this? That was stupid. Don't dwell on that. You know, God is directly telling us through Paul, forget about those things which are behind and press on towards what's ahead. But whenever you find that you are constantly being reminded of your failures and indiscretions and choices that you made in the past, that's not God who's reminding. That's forgiven, that's forgotten, that's cast away. That is really demonic forces, and that is our evil self that is reminding us of our past. I mean, if God can forgive us, then we need to forgive us. Um, you know, we can't just say, you know, well, I'm gonna get healing all on my own. No, we can't get healing on our own. It needs to come through God. So when it comes to medication, medication doesn't bring forgiveness, medication doesn't bring restoration. It might make you more tired, but you know, that that's not gonna bring the true healing. So we have to go back as counselors, you know, and people that are in the church and first let the the lady or the man know that listen, this is confidential. Whatever we say here does not ever leave this room. But we've gotta get to the source of your pain so that we can address that. Pain. I've got a good friend named Sean Corcoran who runs a ministry called Men for Life. Um, Sean was in college, his girlfriend became pregnant, he wanted to get married, have the baby, and start life. She didn't she decided that she didn't want to be with him, she didn't want to have a baby, and without any kind of consent or information, she aborted that child, which led Sean to you know becoming an attorney, and he stands up for men's rights because yes, the baby is being carried in the womb of the mother, but 50% of the genetics of that baby are directly from the father. Where if a woman chooses to keep the pregnancy, which is great, the man will have legal responsibilities to meet the needs of that child and provide child support. Yet he should doesn't have any rights when she decides, I don't want to have a baby, I'm gonna abort this baby regardless of the gestational age. So men are engaged, they need to be involved and they need to stand up for the lives of the baby. But this is the role of the church. The role of the church is, yes, to worship and to share, but it also is to share the gospel and to promote healing, especially when you look in any congregation and you realize that 25% of the men and the women have personally been involved in an abortion. The men and the women are hurting, they need healing, healing comes from forgiveness, and true forgiveness only comes through the blood of Christ, which is why this is something that needs to be discussed from the pulpits.

SPEAKER_04 23:34

So can you tell us more about fatherhood? Uh, I know this is a little bit of a tangent, but can you speak more about um, you know, if you were talking to a room of people who have experienced abortion or they're experiencing loneliness or depression, what would you say to that group when it comes to them being new fathers? Um how would you go about trying to introduce them into some positive directions for fatherhood?

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Oh, this is the best news that any father could ever have, which is why it is so important that we have men that are engaged in our pregnancy centers. We can't look at pro-life centers and pro-life resource centers just being a ladies' ministry. The men need to get engaged. In fact, men, their role is to be a defender and a protector. This is what they are called by God to do. And so we need to have men who will celebrate with these guys and not say, uh, not take the attitude, oh man, this is tough. You're only 19 and you're pregnant, and we're gonna try to help you out. No, celebrate it. This is good news. There is nothing that brings more joy than having a child. I mean, I have two daughters, both are married. I have my first grandbaby that's due in November. And everybody tells me you should have your grandkids first because they bring you so much joy, but it just doesn't work out that way. But she's due in November, and I couldn't imagine life without them. Um, so we need to celebrate, and the church needs to celebrate, and we need to rejoice along with them. And a lot of times we do a great job with that, but you know, you know, if we're going to preach from the pulpit that life begins at conception and have diaper drives and baby bottle, you know, fundraisers for our pregnancy centers. There's also a lesson that can be learned when it comes to when somebody has a miscarriage. And my wife and I learned this as far as what's the role of the church when a woman has a miscarriage. And you know, we had our first pregnancy, only a few people knew about it, and we had the miscarriage, but our second pregnancy, especially when we had the heart beating, you know, we told everybody. And then sadly, a couple weeks later, we started to have spotting bleeding and we lost that pregnancy. But everybody knew. Well, we had a lot of people who just avoid us, don't even want to talk about it. Then we had some people that were just hurtful. They didn't mean to be hurtful, but they were they were. Um, after we had our first you know, miscarriage, and we had uh somebody come up to my wife and she goes, Well, at least you know you can get pregnant. What are you talking about? Second miscarriage, people would say the same thing, at least you know you can get pregnant. Then when we had our third miscarriage after we'd already have a child, you know, we had somebody who says, Well, at least you have one child. So if we're good, if you know you think about, well, what would happen if somebody delivered a baby and two months later that baby passed away? The church would fulfill the role of the church. There would be food that is, I mean, there'd be more lasagna in your freezer than you could eat in a year. There would be people stopping by, people giving cards, sorry about your loss, and they would just lift you up and encourage you. Sunday schools would start food drives and prayer drives and greeting cards and everything else. But when the church also realizes that somebody's had a miscarriage, we need to go up to those people and of course do it confidentially and quietly, but say, listen, I've heard about your loss. I am so, so sorry. If there's anything that I can do to help you, please let me know. We're going to be praying for you because I know this is emotionally traumatic when you have this kind of loss. So if we're going to say life begins at conception and celebrate life when a baby is born and then mourn life when a baby that has been delivered passes away, then we need to have that same, you know, love of Christ when it comes to somebody having a miscarriage, because 20% of all pregnancies will result in a loss. And when it comes to that loss, it's real. And you have already, you know how many weeks along you are, you know when your due date's going to be. Maybe you had an ultrasound, you already saw that beating heart. But 20% of those pregnancies will result in a miscarriage. But you can imagine that pain. I mean, I know that pain of having a miscarriage. I can't imagine that pain if the loss of that pregnancy was because of a decision that we did. But there are so many men and women that are in your congregations that have been hurting, not just for years, but sometimes decades. And so they number one need to hear from their pulpits that abortion is wrong, abortion is sin. That's an attack on the image of God inside of the womb. But they also have to hear that message of healing where they can have forgiveness. Forgiveness is available, and this person is already saved, that they have already been forgiven, and that the real secret is that needing to repent. Because repentance of a sin that's already been forgiven is very important. Giving it to God and just letting him know, thank you. I messed up, I repent, I know I was wrong. But it if it's not discussed from the pulpit, it's kind of like this quiet sin. And I've had patients of mine who have been dealing with this. Maybe they're, you know, nobody in their family knows that they've been involved in an abortion. Maybe their spouse doesn't know, maybe their friends don't know, maybe they're dealing with this all by themselves. So that's why confidentiality, but coming through forgiveness, discussing it from the pulpit. Um, even when it comes to miscarriage, I mean, some people think that why does God hate me? Why did I have two miscarriages? Well, 20% of all pregnancies will result in a miscarriage. I mean, that's just the statistic. So letting somebody know the truth. This isn't because of something that you did that caused this miscarriage. Lots of people have this, but we understand that pain. We understand that sense of loss. And when we look at 20%, maybe 25% of the people in our congregations are dealing with this often secret, quiet sin of an abortion, we need to let them know we understand we're all sinners. We're in that same boat with you. You might not have had an abortion, but we're in that same boat. And you have a lot of men who actually push their pregnant girlfriends and sometimes even their wives into having an abortion, and then they're realizing it's wrong. That's the beauty of the gospel, that's the beauty of salvation, which brings true forgiveness, and true forgiveness that brings true healing.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Hmm.

SPEAKER_04 29:53

Yeah, so as you were talking, I was thinking of a story from seven years ago when I recently just I had joined the church that I'm going to now, and there was a gentleman, uh, David, who we were going on a one-hour road trip to a retreat. And this is my first time to go to this prayer retreat. And on that road trip, he shared that um, you know, his wife had a miscarriage, and I felt really sad, and I definitely I did not express my sadness or you know, if it would have been a child that was, you know, out of the womb, I I would have grieved differently. And I did feel very sad, but I didn't I felt like I was at a loss of words, like I didn't know what to say, and I didn't know how to express it. And and um and I could tell that he was very torn up, he was very sad, they had not had a child yet, and here we are seven years later, and I think he I think they had two miscarriages, and then I think they've had four children after those first two miscarriages. And but it makes me think, you know, as someone who was working in the pro-life work movement for at that point uh over 15 years, I still was I did not respond. And I think what you said was very kind and compassionate, which is to respond the same way um as if it was a child out of the womb, even though it's a miscarriage in the womb. I think that's the right that's a really important thought. And and and I say that because I found myself not have I felt myself grasping for how to respond seven years ago, and I I didn't come up with that thought. So I'm really glad that you said that today. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

You are welcome. It's part of one of the chapters in our curriculum because we realized we are not teaching in our churches how to respond. We we do what we yeah, the church is called to do when somebody has a loss of a child after it's been born, but we don't have that same love and compassion and meeting that need when it's a loss of a child on the inside. And Christian counseling is so important in this issue. Um, yes, we have thousands of counselors across the country, but a Christian perspective when it comes to depression and anxiety is just so important. Whether it's a counselor, whether it is even a psychiatrist, um, when it comes to abortion, this is a spiritual battle. This is an attack on the image of God inside the womb. And the organizations which are pushing abortion are pushing abortion because this is out of a hatred for God. This is an attack on the image of God that is in the womb from that moment of conception. And when you look at the training and the standards here in the United States as far as you know, truly looking at the honest data. You know, you look at obstetricians, they say, you know what, there's no risk when it comes to taking the abortion pill. We were told that, and what they on the studies had been told that to the FDA, and then all of a sudden the abortion pill is available and it's horrible, it kills a baby up to 10 weeks, and there's studies even showing how the abortion pill can be used up to 28 weeks during the pregnancy. But now we have irrefutable data that the abortion pill as directed is 22 times as dangerous. But when you look at the American Academy of Psychiatry, they quote unquote will say that abortion does not lead to mental health harm. That is a quote from the American Psychiatric Association. Well, what do the rest of the uh groups across the country say? Well, an independent study conducted by the Charlotte Lozier Institute said that regarding abortion, there was a 37% increase in depression. There was a 34% increase in anxiety, there was three times the increase in use of marijuana, there was double the abuse of alcohol, and six times the risk of suicide after a person had had an abortion. Yet the American Psychiatric Association says, yeah, no, it has no impact on mental health. But then you start to look at the other groups from around the world. The British Journal of Psychiatry had similar stats to what Charlotte Lozier had, uh, Poland, Italy, um, Finland. In fact, Finland study showed there was a six times increase, not percent, six times increase in people committing suicide after an abortion. So that's why a Christian counselor is so important in this, and somebody who's going to honestly look that this was a real loss, just like the loss of a parent, just like the loss of a spouse, just like the loss of a child. This is a real loss that was initiated and decided and caused by an individual. And so this loss needs to be addressed, not just cover up the pain, you know, with antidepressants and anxiety medications and sleeping pills, but actually go back to what actually initiated this because there is an impact on mental health when somebody has had an abortion. And it might not just be a couple months later, it could be years later, and in a lot of cases, it's decades later. And if you don't ask the questions, then you're not going to get the answer. So you can address forgiveness. And this is not something that just goes away on its own, it really goes away with true forgiveness. And it's not about, you know, forgiving yourself. No, it's really about forgiveness which comes from God. And if God can forgive you, then yes, you can forgive yourself because you recognize that you are a sinner. But then there also is hope. Because I truly believe that even with the sin of abortion, that that child will someday be in heaven. You look at scripture when David lost that child in the mother's womb. I mean, he mourned. He just was sackcloth ashes and he mourned and he cried. But then he reached a point where it was time to get up and realize I will be restored and see my child again. So giving the people not only that, your sins have been forgiven, but someday you will be renight with that child. That child is in heaven. And uh, you know, the real beauty would be you'll see that child someday, but only if you're a Christian, only if you put your trust in Christ, that he is your savior and he forgives you of your sins. And that's where the true healing begins of yes, I messed up, I was wrong, but thank God there's a God that loves me so much that he sent his son to earth, he lived the perfect life, he gave his life for me, he was buried for three days, and he conquered the grave, rose again. And if we put our trust in him, then our sins can be forgiven. That is the source of forgiveness for both men and women.

SPEAKER_04 36:54

Wow, that's so good. And and that story of David and his well, the child from Bathsheba is wrought with, well, just a lot of uh sin and complexity and and how God took that child as well. It's sort of um it's a complex story. Um and um well, I I'd like to um switch gears a little bit. So there's a passage in James. I was wondering if you would pull it up. James 5 13 to 16. I and I'd like to see if you would read a bit and then reflect and then read a bit and reflect because it's uh about yeah, I I'd like to hear your your thoughts as you read through this bit by bit. Yeah, so James five thirteen and then all the way to sixteen.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

All right.

SPEAKER_04 37:43

Um just read a little bit and then reflect. Yeah, let me take your time.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

Yeah, it's a prayer of faith. So James five, verse thirteen. Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayers of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power and it is working. That's the beauty of forgiveness. I mean, what's the loss when it comes to an abortion? Well, let's look at scripture. Number one, Genesis 126, God says, you know, and God said, Let us make man in our image. I mean, they've already made God has already made the entire universe, um, all the billions of galaxies and the billions of stars in those galaxies, and then he's already created the earth and all the mountains and the rivers and the streams, all the mammals, the birds and the fish. But then he says, Let us make man in our image. And that's very, very special about us as humans. And when are we created in the image of God? That's at that moment of conception. In fact, biologically, people will say, Well, we don't know when life begins. It's like, yes, we do know when life begins. It begins at that moment of conception. And it's so obvious when that you have one egg, and then you might have 300 million sperm that are all swimming like Michael Phelps, one to be the gold medalist, and then one gets on the inside. Well, then what do you do with the other 300 million that want to get on the inside? Well, how do you prevent them from getting inside too and becoming the silver and the gold and the bronze medalist? Well, God actually has a shield that goes up and it's called the zona pellucida. And the zona pellucida takes that, you know, membrane of the egg and it makes it sealed up like a shield. Nobody else gets in. But what's amazing is that that moment of conception, when the zona pellucida puts that protection around the egg, if you look with the right frequency of light, you can actually see a flash of light. That is how special. I mean, do a word study on the word light. Jesus is the light of the world. Light was created before the sun was created. There's something very powerful in scripture regarding light. So when we are created in the image of God, yes, there's a huge sense of that loss. But then what happens after that? Well, the psalmist we just talked about, David, Psalm 139, the psalmist doesn't understand about cell differentiation and fetal anatomy and fetal development. How we can go from one cell that's unique from the other 8 billion people on the planet, unique from mom and dad, and all of a sudden that one cell doubles its genetic material and multiplies and becomes two. And then it doubles its genetic material, becomes four, eight, sixteen, thirty-two, sixty-four. I mean, even at 10 weeks, there's over a billion cells. Your body and my body are sitting here at 60 trillion cells. But during that development, each cell has the exact same DNA and chromosomes and all that genetic material. And they start to divide, and they're just identical cells, but our cells are not identical because early on, one of those cells will divide and become two cells, and one of them will say, you know what? I'm gonna start the entire cardiovascular system. I'm only gonna read chart, you know, chapter 13 of the DNA. And it's other cell that it just is divided from says, that's cool. I'm gonna read chapter 23 and I'm gonna start the entire neurologic system. And it lays down the, I mean, I spent my life studying anatomy and seeing how you know God developed us. I can tell you what happens at day 16, what happens at day 17. Nobody can tell you how these cells knew what they were supposed to do and what their role was supposed to be tomorrow. So that in and of itself is a miracle. And the psalmist was so eloquent when he says, You knit me in my mother's womb. And knit, I mean, I still have sweaters that my grandmother knit for me. It is one stitch at a time. You can't just develop a whole sweater, it is one stitch at a time. But then even when you look in Luke, in Luke 1, where Mary, who is about three months pregnant, decides that she's gonna go visit Elizabeth, who's about six months pregnant. And so this was not just going across the street, this was about 80 miles from where Mary lived to where Elizabeth lived. So this wasn't just I'm gonna walk across the street. This was a journey. And when Mary showed up there and Elizabeth, Elizabeth said something very key. She said that the mother of my Lord would visit me. Not the mother of the baby that's going to become my Lord, but the mother of my Lord. Elizabeth recognized him as her Lord. And what else does Luke include? Well, don't forget, Luke is a physician. So Luke actually says that Elizabeth said that the baby in my womb leaped for joy. I mean, it didn't just move, it leaped and expressed a human emotion, joy. John the Baptist, like, my goodness, I'm in the presence of Jesus himself, and he leaped in his mother's womb for joy. And the word that's used to describe those babies that are interacting in the womb there is a word called brefos. Brefos meaning baby. But what's interesting is in Luke 2, the very next chapter, the same word is used to describe Jesus, brefos, but now he is in the manger. So God doesn't really see a difference between the baby in the womb and the baby in the manger. We are human, we express emotion, and that when we do have a you know miscarriage or an abortion, there's a huge sense of loss when that occurs. So scripture is just full of examples of the value of that baby in the womb, but it also you know is full of people who have sinned. We just talked about David. We talked about you know the decisions that he made that affected his reputation and his life, and we have had people fail throughout scriptures, but even when they do fail. And they do fall, forgiveness and restoration is available to them, and that's why Christ came to earth, you know, out of love for us, not of condemnation for us, but out of love for us. Because, you know, we all fail, we all fall, but there is that option of healing that is available to all people.

SPEAKER_04 44:21

That's so good. So when someone is experiencing depression before or after an abortion, what is the what is the remedy for that anxiety, that depression, that loneliness? And uh what is what is you know what what what would be a good response to that?

SPEAKER_00 44:42

You know, let's talk about suicide for a second. And you know, there was a study that was done in California, and we know that the Golden Gate Bridge is beautiful, it is, it's probably one of the most popular places that people will sadly go to take their lives. And over 2,000 people have walked out onto the Golden Gate Bridge, they've jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge to take their life. But amazingly, there are 29 known people who walked out onto the bridge, they jumped off the bridge, they fell 220 feet to the ground below them, or to the water below, and by some miracle they survived. They either swam to shore, they were fished out by fishermen, or the Coast Guard got them. And so there was a psychologist who realized, my goodness, there are 29 people that jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge and survived. And so she interviewed 29 of 29. All 29 had similar stories. They said, Nobody loves me, nobody cares for me, nobody's here to meet my needs. And they walked out onto that bridge, and out of this despair and loneliness, they jumped off the bridge. And then the psychiatrist says, Well, that's why you were falling those three seconds before you hit the water. What was going through your mind? Twenty-nine of twenty-nine said that they immediately had that sense of regret. They said, I don't want to die. They cried out to God and by some miracle they survived. Well, the same thing occurs when it comes to women who are facing that decision of abortion. They don't know where they're going to turn, they don't know what they're gonna do, they don't know what the response of their boyfriend or husband is going to be, and they walk into the abortion pill, into the abortion mill. And whether they take the abortion pill or whether they have a surgical abortion, they have that immediate sense of regret. And when it comes to the abortion pill, we have about a 72-hour window where we can actually safely and successfully reverse the effect of the abortion pill. The abortion pill is very effective in blocking a hormone called progesterone. Well, we actually can reverse it by giving the woman progesterone, the same hormone that we use in other aspects of pregnancy, and we have now documented a successful reverse of the abortion pill over 7,000 times. I've attempted to reverse the abortion pill 26 times, and we I've been successful 19 out of those 26 times. So it's an opportunity to yes, we have regrets, and most of the time when it comes to decisions that we made, there isn't a plan B. When somebody makes a bad decision regarding a narcotic, we have narcand. We can reverse the effect of a narcotic and overdose. It's you know, we lose over a million people uh each year due to narcotic overdoses. So over a hundred thousand, it's about a hundred and thirty thousand due to narcotic overdoses. But when somebody realizes they've made a bad decision, we can reverse that effect. But when it comes to a surgical abortion, there is no plan B. There is no, you know, reversal. So we've all made mistakes, we've all made changes and things that we regret, but the healing really comes from forgiveness. And that's why it's so important to get with a Christian counselor, a Christian counselor who has a biblical worldview, who can understand and not say, Oh, it was a just a choice, move on, you're doing fine. Lots of people do it. That's not the response that you need to have. You're really looking for healing from true pain because you had a true loss, and that needs to be dealt with through the gospel. I mean, that's the really the secret to bringing healing. I mean, forget about what lies behind, yes, but then press on to what's ahead, just like Paul said. So that's what's really important and why a Christian counselor, a Christian psychiatrist is so vital when it comes to this, and it can go on for decades.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

Yeah, uh through talking with many pregnancy clinics, uh mostly directors, um, I would say most pregnancy clinics overall have have stated that 85, uh, maybe 80 to 85 percent of women uh who are abortion-minded who come in will end up choosing life after receiving care. And by having someone listen to them, like you said, like that is I think that is absolutely the you know, filling that need is uh the listening, the care, the support, and the things that go with that. But that care and listening is something that can't just be skipped over. It's it's literally that's uh the you know the agent of change or the you know the the reason for people you know thinking, oh I can do this compared to I can't do this.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Yeah, and there are almost 4,000 pregnancy resource centers throughout the country that will not only meet the medical needs, but they'll share the truth. But they're not just there to have somebody make the right decision. They were them with them there throughout the pregnancy. It's amazing. They will provide uh educational training, job training, skills training. A lot of them can even provide housing for the mom and her kids. And it's really important. Ultrasound is an amazing tool to let them know what is actually at stake here. Let them see a beating heart, let them hear a beating heart, let them see fingers and toes and movement on the inside, let them have that view of what is at stake here. But then also having the dads become engaged because when the dads see the ultrasound, the dads become involved. And don't forget, a lot of these dads have never had a dad in their life. You know, they're have we have a culture now that we have a lot of moms in a very maternal society where we have ultrasounds where the dad might have gotten her pregnant six weeks ago. They come into my office and it's the mom, it's the grandmother, it might be an auntie or two. But so many times we don't have a single father man figure there. So pregnancy centers, one need to make sure they're inviting the guy because it will be advantageous, but also making sure they have male counselors who can let these guys know that this is a gift, this is a treasure, and what it means to actually be a guy. And a lot of centers have lots of men that are involved in their ministry. And they even have rooms that are set up, not with Vera Bradley, Laura Ashley type decor in those rooms, but these are rooms that have football and hunting and things like that where a guy would feel comfortable. Guy doesn't want to see all these pink and yellow and lace and and things like that. He wants to express his, you know, why chromosome. And so there are godly men who are there to say, look, you know, if you could change things that happened two months ago, you know, we could. But you've been blessed with a child and let them know what that blessing is, what it means to them, and also let them know that there are resources. We were out in Colorado and there was a pregnancy center that actually routinely, you know, had counselors for the guys, but at the end of each year, they would have the moms and the dads and their babies come for a big barbecue that they would hold on the facility, and other guys would get there, and they would have over a hundred couples and other guys getting to meet guys who were in that same room in that same situation as them, going, Man, I can't believe I almost was encouraging my girlfriend or my wife to get rid of and kill this child that I'm now couldn't live without. I mean, you talk to guys who I get up in the morning, I don't want to leave my child. I come back in the evening, it's the first thing I want to see is I want to see my child. I can't deny, I almost denied myself of this happiness and joy that goes along with parenthood. So encouraging the women, saying, We're going to be here with you, we'll be here with you. When you make this right decision, we'll be here with you during the pregnancy. And a lot of centers can even meet the needs after the baby is born, whether it's diapers or whether it's clothes or whether it is housing, they are there to help, they are there to serve. And then when somebody, despite all that great counseling and resources, when somebody does make a regrettable decision and has an abortion, they don't turn them away. My wife was a wonderful, compassionate, sensitive post-abortion counselor. And so when somebody does come into our pregnancy centers or does come into my church and say, I made a mistake, you know, can you please help me? We don't turn them away. I mean, Jesus wouldn't turn them away, so we're really expressing that love of Christ. You know, forget about what lies ahead behind and press on towards what's ahead. You know, repent and sin no more is what he told the woman at the well. So yes, we all make mistakes, but there is still hope and there is still healing ahead of you.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

That's so good. Yeah, I remember thinking of a story well, I think it may have been a a podcast from a long time ago where a gentleman that was talking about fatherhood or dadhood as he might have called it, was promoting the idea of you know, very often the guy feels like there's nothing he can do, you know, while he's like almost like a bystander while the pregnancy is taking place. And one suggestion was um you know, to do like some woodworking with a few guys who are new dads and build cribs out of wood, which is a way for them to do something that's masculine while also doing something that directly is something that they can be proud of or contributing to the the you know the scenario. And and how cool is it to, you know, to to think ahead as that you know young child is born and and then lays its head on a crib that dad built and how that'll become an heirloom. And so yeah, that's a really and I just love the idea of you know trying to bring in men as men into into this story, this scene, and and including them because very often the the world's voice says they are they don't they're they're powerless and it's the woman's choice and so on. But but honestly, they need to they need to take back that territory and and cla reclaim their voice, reclaim their power and and and be a provider, a supporter, uh, you know, someone who protects and defends and provides. Um well this has been really a really good hour spent, Dr. Lyle. I'm really glad you were on here. Um any final thoughts, and then let's wrap up in a prayer um as we yeah close this out.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

Well, we're created in the image of God. Abortion is an attack on the image of God, and for me as an obstetrician who's delivered over 5,000 babies, these babies in the womb are our patients. And all patients have rights. Patients have rights when they weren't born in the United States, and patients have rights when they weren't born in the United States yet. And we don't just diagnose babies with ultrasound, we are treating and we are curing these babies in the womb. We're giving them blood transfusions at 18 weeks, giving them cardiac medications, we're performing open heart surgery, spin ebifido corrective surgery, brain surgery, laser vascular surgery. We have centers around the country that are treating babies as patients, and a patient is a person no matter how small. Um, if there's anything we can do, one way to get in touch with me is through our website, which is prolifedoc.org. Patient's a person no matter how small. We need to stand up for the image of God in the womb, and as men and women, need we need to engage, and our number one tool to defeat evil is going to be the gospel to shed light. It is light that always will dispel any kind of darkness, so we have to go with the light of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_04 56:40

That's so good. Yeah, thank you so much. Would you uh close us out with a uh prayer and for those who are listening, please pray please pray along.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

Lord, we love you. We just are so appreciative of the honor it is to be able to participate in this ministry to share the beauty of the original creation in the wombs of a mother, how Jesus could have just wandered in out of the wilderness at the age of thirty and still accomplished his mission, but you chose a better way. You chose for the Savior of the world to come to the earth through the womb of a woman. We just thank you for that child who was born to be you know the word Elizabeth knew this is my Lord, even though he was only three months along. We just thank you for that that he did grow up as a child. He did grow up as a young man, but then he served us and he lived the perfect life and he gave his life for each of us. And then he was buried. He was buried for three days, and miraculously he conquered the grave. And for one reason he did all that. That is for me, that is for Jacob and everybody who is out there listening. We just thank you for the ability to forgive our sins, to wash us white as snow. May we just follow that urging of Paul in Philippians 3 13 to truly forget about which lies behind and press on towards what's ahead to truly serve you, follow your teachings, and share the healing message of the gospel with all their friends, families, and neighbors. Thank you, Lord, and we appreciate and we honor you. In your name I pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_04 58:20

Amen.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

Do you not know, and have you not heard the everlasting God the Lord of the earth? Give strength to the weary and go to that high. So I do it.