The ProLife Team Podcast
The ProLife Team Podcast
The ProLife Team Podcast 92 | Shawn Zierke & Jacob Barr | Talking About Ethical Marketing Words
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Welcome to the ProLife Team Podcast. I'm Sean Zerke with Zerke Consulting Group here with Jacob Barr, and we are going to be talking about a variety of topics today. But the first big topic is being accused of deceptive advertising practices and what that means for your pregnancy center in light of some recent directives that have come out advising pregnancy centers about abortion screening, abortion consultation, abortion options, and should you be using these terms?
SPEAKER_01So, Sean, I'm excited to have you again on the ProLife Team podcast. For those who don't know who you are, would you introduce yourself as if you were talking to a small group of Pranksy Clinic leadership executive directors or board members?
SPEAKER_04Sure. So my name is Sean Zerke. I am uh owner and consultant with Zerkey Consulting Group. Um lived for very, very many years in uh Iowa, but now we live in North Central Florida. And I, my gosh, I've been in the pro-life fight since I was in high school. I remember being passionate about um making sure all my friends understood what saline abortion was and how awful it was as far back as ninth grade. Um, but fast forward to 2006, and I was the hired as the executive director of a clinic in Dubuque, Iowa, to convert it to a pregnancy health medical clinic. They did patient-administered pregnancy tests at that time, and um they wanted to offer ultrasound and std testing, so I came in and converted them. And it was kind of new back then to have ultrasound and std testing. And I mean 2006, that was a long time ago. Um then and then I was there, I did that successfully, and then went to Iowa City and helped to start um Informed Choice of Iowa, um, which grew eventually to five clinics in a mobile unit uh up until COVID. Um but then I I also had five kids, and my husband was an up-and-coming chef. So I uh before I left Informed Choice of Iowa, though I had the opportunity to speak to the Knights of Columbus of Iowa at their state convention and cast this vision about having ultrasound machines in pregnancy centers and having women the opportunity, giving the opportunity to see their baby by ultrasound and choose life. And they ended up giving ultrasound machines to Informed Choice of Iowa, and then um a year later, the Iowa Knights spoke to the National Knights, and it became the National Knights initiative to put ultrasound machines in pregnancy centers across the nation. And I'm sure they're well beyond their 11th hundredth machine, probably at this point now, uh, since that was in 2008. And um so then I went and helped my husband with the uh restaurant business and went back to school, got a master's in public health and health management policy, got an MBA in social entrepreneurship, which is the business of nonprofits, and uh started my consulting business in 2016, really primarily working with life-affirming organizations. And so, and what brought me to Iowa is that I created um to a registered nurse apprenticeship program. You had us on your one of your podcasts talking about the supernurse, and uh that was in 2020 we created that. In 2021, I was invited to come to Florida and roll it out across the state under a nearly half million dollar grant. And so that's what brought us to Florida, and what kept us here is through that I uh found about this little baby who needed a heart transplant, and they wouldn't give him a heart without an adoptive family. So my husband and I uh adopted a baby after having five adult children and a grandbaby. We adopted a baby and he got his heart transplant. So that's what I do. I work with pregnancy centers, multi-specialty medical practices that are life affirming, um, and other nonprofit organizations across the nation uh to help them do what they do even better.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Yeah, thank you for sharing your backstory. And and so the podcast today, we're gonna be talking about this this well, essentially some messaging and word choice uh uh you know, thoughts when it comes to something that Karenet uh put out, as well as yeah, just talking about these phrases on their own and how and how people perceive them, what they mean, what risks might be connected with some of these. And looking to you for the the medical, looking to the medical lens with your experience and yeah, from that from that side, and I'll try and look at it from the marketing lens. Um yeah, so what are your thoughts on this uh the statement uh about the pre-abortion screening phrasing? What sh what can you share the backstory on this phrasing uh based on Carnet's um uh I guess it will I guess it was a uh an article or a statement that they had made?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I was just made aware of it because um several of my clients are Karenet affiliates that received um this communication uh really cautioning their affiliates to um not what they were perceiving as deceptive advertising practices, that accusation from the uh pro-abortion community and the liberal left out there trying to tell the world that pregnancy centers are engaged in deceptive marketing practices and um that they are passing themselves off as one thing and providing a completely different service, which we all know in this world that that is not the case. Um, there are some, however, uh organizations that go way too far in their redirect and um uh advertising and their counseling to get abortion vulnerable and abortion-minded women in the door, and they have been deceptive and women are showing up thinking they were coming to an abortion clinic. So unfortunately, where do most laws come you know come from when people don't do the right thing to start with, and people end up um harmed, or and so that's where laws and legislation come in. So, in the case of this directive from CareNet, I'm sure that on one hand they wanted to distance themselves from any affiliate that um wasn't absolutely clear uh with their clients about the services they do and do not provide. At the same time, I believe that they may have gone too far in their directive. Um I believe that, and you can speak to the marketing side of this, but women are who are seeking an abortion are saying, I need an abortion. They're googling where can abortion near me, they're googling how do I induce a miscarriage, they're googling all of these things, they're not googling where do I find a pregnancy center. Yeah um if they're abortion-minded, right? Um, most of these women don't even think that or even know that they don't have enough information to make a medical, an informed medical decision. And the Planned Parenthoods and other abortion clinics like them are counting on the fact that women don't know that they need more information to make an informed decision. So, in in that pursuit, do they need pre-abortion counseling? Yeah, do we provide pre-abortion counseling? Every pregnancy center should be providing pre-abortion counseling. That's called options counseling. That's what we train our options counselors to do, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and I think from my experience, 85%. Well, what what percent do you know of women that go into a pranxi clinic who are abortion leaning or at risk of choosing abortion or abortion-minded? I'm not sure which phrase to use here, but what percent of women will end up choosing life, parenting, or adoption after receiving care at a prenty clinic? What's been your number that you've seen? What's the range that you've seen?
SPEAKER_04So it's as high as 85% when they are able to see their baby by ultrasound. Um when you have a pregnancy resource center that lacks the ultrasound option, the medical option, their effectiveness does decline considerably. Because the argument that you could say, well, 60% of these pregnancies end in miscarriage before 12 weeks, and in fact, it's even higher than that now in a society that's had the introduction of the COVID vaccine. Women are miscarrying at a much higher rate, and so um verifying that it's a viable pregnancy via ultrasound is important information to have before you even consider abortion. Um, the I've said this before, you may have heard me talk about it, but informed consent for medical procedures is when you get the procedure described to you, the risks of that procedure, and any of the potential side effects that you would experience from that procedure. And even in receiving a drug combination like Mifepristone or misapristol, you your pharmacist, if they see that you've never picked that prescription up from them at the pharmacy, they offer you counseling and they say, Do you are you aware how this is going to work? You might want to make sure that you don't drive or uh operate heavy machinery or don't take this and ibuprofen at the same time. Or there's been a percentage of women that take um misopristol alone that have uterine rupture, or they're vomiting so much so badly they um have esophageal ruptures and bleed out. Are you aware of that risk? And what percentage of women have that happen to them and what are the the uh conditions in which that can happen? Um and so that's the information that we need to be delivering to women in a pre-abortion screening. If that's the information you're delivering, you you can give that and say, Well, we don't provide abortions here. We want to make sure that you have all the information you need to make an informed decision.
SPEAKER_01Would would pre-abortion screening be considered like like let's say with other elective medical decisions, medical elective medical operations um is the uh is the pre-screening regularly, is it normally looked at as a unique individual service, or is that separate from the actual procedure? Or how would that be looked at medically?
SPEAKER_04It is separate from the procedure. You should always have uh you don't wait and schedule a surgery for a patient that you've never seen. Although I'm saying this and I can immediately think of a recent VA patient story that that I heard from an internal medicine doc who said that he had this patient call him up and say, I'm done with the VA. They scheduled me for a surgery, and I never even saw the doctor, which is just not standard of care. It is not standard of care. A patient should understand what their condition is in their diagnosis, they need to understand what are their options, all of them. That's why you hear people talking about second opinions. Maybe they don't like the options they were given. So they want to talk to somebody else who knows some additional options for them, right? Or have their original options confirmed. Then you have to make a decision based on the risks and your particular set of health needs. Is this the right procedure for you based on all that information? And so you should have the option to have informed consent for all of these things. And we know that when you're facing an unplanned pregnancy, all the things that are legally available to you, unfortunately, um vary from you know, state to state right now. It would be great if the only two options were to parent or to place your child for adoption, but that's not the case right now. And it's even more detailed differences depending on what do you have a heartbeat law? Do you have a 15-week abortion ban? Is abortion legal all the way up until the moment of natural delivery? It just depends on which state you live in. And options counselors providing true informed consent should be required to one, determine do you have a viable pregnancy, how far along you are, what are the options available to you, and what are the procedures, risks, and side effects so that you can make an informed decision.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what what are your thoughts about a pregnancy clinic providing this pre-abortion screening, consultation, advice, information while not promoting the abortion procedure or the abortion decision?
SPEAKER_04So, in a true informed consent um option in a pregnancy help medical clinic, if you're saying, well, your options to parent include this. We can connect you with housing, child care assistance, uh, we can help you sign up for food stamp benefits and Medicaid and WIC. Um, we can help you with all these things. Are you addicted to drugs? Well, let's call a drug counseling um support group or a program. Or do you need child care? Are you in a domestic violence relationship, right? That's why her plan, SBA ProLife America, created her plan because her plan connects you to resources in your state that cover all of these areas of need, all of these reasons that you may even second guess whether you can continue to parent a child in an unplanned pregnancy. So pregnancy centers should be prepared to connect women to all of those resources if at all possible. Then if they say, Well, I don't think I can do that even if you provide me with housing or food or whatever, I can't do it. Well, adoption is another option, and you tell them how adoption open, closed, the modern adoption process, Heartbeat offers amazing classes for nurses and counselors on how to offer that information and connect them to reputable adoption agencies in their community, right? No, I still want an abortion. All right, well, let's see how far along you are. Okay, I understand that you're really considering this option. Let's have an ultrasound see how far along you are. So you you've confirmed, well, they are pregnant, they're 13 weeks pregnant. Well, in your state, it is legal. So, what are your options at 13 weeks? And you walk through what a surgical abortion is. What does that involve? What are they going to feel like? What are the physical, mental um implications to their body and their mind and their spirit? And that is true counseling and an informed consent. And when women are faced with real information and real resources, and you understand how to counsel them, the Ottawa Decision Guide is a great method for learning how to counsel people in a life or death situation. It was originally created for people facing cancer diagnoses, right? Um, and nurses are trained then on that, and then it was adapted for emergency room and trauma and life or death situations for nurses and medical personnel to counsel people and their options when they have a very short amount of time to make an informed decision. So the Ottawa Decision Guide is a great method for pregnancy center to incorporate in truly giving informed consent and counseling these women on what their options are. So the answer, that very long-winded answer, is yes, I would do what I do in high schools when I walk in and do a three-day training program. Um, and the third day is focused on abortion procedure risk and side effects for all the different stages of pregnancy and what is actually happening to your body.
SPEAKER_01So, yeah, so based on that, it seems reasonable for a pregnancy clinic willing to provide parenting information, adoption information, and information on abortion for someone to make an informed decision on what's going to be best for them in the the whole of their life, and maybe not just in the short term of their life. Um based on that, it sounds like using the phrase pre-abortion screening would align with services being offered.
SPEAKER_04Or even pre-abortion counseling, because options counseling is exactly that.
SPEAKER_01Okay. What's the difference between screening, counseling, and uh consultation?
SPEAKER_04Like, screening in my mind denotes yeah, sorry, screening in my mind denotes um eligibility requirements.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_04Screening whether you are eligible to have an abortion. I mean, you could use it, it could stretch. I mean, one, are you really pregnant? I don't know. Let's get an ultrasound and find out if you have a viable pregnancy. Then screening would absolutely hold up. But in creating this relationship with these women through options counseling, through giving them informed can consent is what it is, for whatever their options are, then you are I would screening seems so surface, but counseling is uh to me denotes a relationship that's being created.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so like is yeah, are you pregnant or were you pregnant? And then secondly, is it a viable pregnancy or did you have are you you know did you have a miscarriage? Is that what's the does the baby have a heartbeat? Um and so screening seems to align with that. And then yes, and then counseling sounds more like are you know, talking about the your someone's personal life and their mental state and their and their thoughts, perhaps, or you know, maybe through encouragement and um finding out where they are you know mentally might be part of that conversation and asking questions.
SPEAKER_04Sure, because we already know the implications of they if they choose any one of their options, the implications on the whole person uh are different, right? Yeah, and so if you're counseling someone, you're you're and it's patient centered care, you take into account the whole person, what's going on in their family, what's going on. In their personal life, what's going on in their mental health and their physical body? All of it.
SPEAKER_01So, what about consultation? How would you def so yeah? So I think I think it makes sense that we've got screening and counseling. How would you where would you place consultation on this spectrum of care or services being provided?
SPEAKER_04So if you think about um a dermatology clinic or you go in for a surgical consult, right, you're talking to a doctor about your surgical options. So consult in the medical community is the same as options counseling in the medical world.
SPEAKER_01What about the implication that abortion screening, pre-abortion consultation, or abortion counseling, which is an interesting phrase? What about the implication that that shows where you're going when it comes to the path you're on? And being that, you know, if there's a if there's a two-step, you know, saying that we provide this infers or implies that we provide the next step or will provide you with directions to the next step. What about that implication?
SPEAKER_04So here's where I absolutely agree with Carnet. I wouldn't put abortion screening, abortion counseling, or abortion consultation on my website.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_04I'm not an abortion provider. Would I use it in my marketing, my SEO, my Google AdWords? You're darn right I would.
SPEAKER_01So when you say Google AdWords, that's one of the best.
SPEAKER_04I would say considering abortion, you need to have options counseling.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So when it comes to Google, are you referring to the text that's visible? Is that what you're referring to?
SPEAKER_04Well, you can put invisible text on your page too.
SPEAKER_01What's that again?
SPEAKER_04So you can put invisible text on your page.
SPEAKER_01That's true, but Google doesn't treat it the same as visible text. Or at least they it doesn't.
SPEAKER_04But you can also do a ghost landing page.
SPEAKER_01Um an unlinked page that's linked to a Google ad that's not linked to your navigation. That would be considered a landing page. And and that's normal. That that's considered um a page with with with you know sort of like a funnel where you have more control over where someone goes next.
SPEAKER_04Yes. But then, and that's where I would send them to be and use whatever words my users are going to respond to, because I want them coming to a pregnancy center and I don't want them going to Planned Parenthood or another abortion provider. So there is a way to capture them and the moment that they're scrolling on their phone and doing a search when they're in crisis, and there's a way to be very clear about what you are providing for them. And counseling, consultation. Um I don't see if it were me, I don't wouldn't use the word screening, but I wouldn't ban somebody from saying screening. I just don't think that it conveys what pregnancy centers do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, so there's two parts to Google. I just want to clarify. So, and because a lot of people get these confused. So there's the words that someone searches with. Like, let's say someone types in pre-abortion screening, and that would be considered a keyword that someone is searching on. And within Google Ads, we're able to target certain phrases. Um, like it could be the broad match for the word abortion, and then that would include pre-abortion screening. Like that'd be an example of, or we actually could have the exact match of pre-abortion screening, but that's different than what the ad that shows up on that Google search result, which is a text ad with a title, a description, and extensions. And and so, and having relevance between the keyword, the text on the ad and the text on the page, creates what's called a high quality score when it comes to relevance, having all three being relevant to each other. However, like for example, here's a you know, we can have a competing brand in the keyword list. So if someone searches for the competing brand name, that's allowed as a keyword that someone searches on. We may not have permission to have that brand name in our text in our ad. That can get there, there's different use cases there. And then we also may or may not want to have that competing brand on the landing page. And so by default, we're gonna have a lower quality score if we have it in the keyword, but not in the text of the ad and not in the text of the page. And all that to say is you know, having the phrase pre-abortion screening would be a way to identify someone seeing this ad, but what's more important for copyright or for word choice would be what shows up in that text of the ad or what shows up on our on our web page. And the text of the ad, like you said, is going to show up to the person doing the search. Meanwhile, the text of the landing page goes to a bigger audience when it comes to people being able to see what we stand for generally outside of yeah, with the search and without the search. But all that's to say is um we yeah. So we're trying to reach women who are stopping for an abortion because a life-giving option to protect the image bearer that they have within them, you know, that has an additional set of fingers, an additional set of toes, an additional heart, an additional brain, additional DNA um is something that they need to know about. And and the fact that the abortion industry does not show them the ultrasound, the abortion industry does not give them all of the true truth that they need to make a healthy, uh, you know, joy-filled long-term decision, and really is just taking advantage of short-term um a short-term crisis and taking advantage of the fact that they're not thinking logically and not helping them regain logic. Um and and and and for a price. While the pregnancy clinics are not um not charging a price and are helping them regain logic, helping them understand what you know, and and 85% will choose a healthier decision when presented with these options and have you know and helping regain capacity to think about their options. Um what what are your thoughts on helping someone regain their ability to consider their options? Like I I've heard one psychologist, Dr. Lester, said um, if you help someone spend more time through time, someone regains logic. So keeping someone in the counseling room, helping them help them, helping them find comfort. And he referred to using caffeine and chocolate as tools to help someone regain logic because it helps someone lower their stress, it helps them relax. And and usually you don't think of you know caffeine or chocolate as uh being a helpful tool, but they are helpful for reducing stress in the moment.
SPEAKER_04And help and so anyways, all that's serotonin, yes.
SPEAKER_01Increasing, what was that again?
SPEAKER_04Serotonin, I believe.
SPEAKER_01Oh, maybe. Yeah, that's beyond my uh understanding. But yeah, so what are your thoughts on helping someone regain um the ability to think? What are your thoughts in that position?
SPEAKER_04So, and a woman in crisis um often wants to feel heard, understood, and at the same time have boundaries. And so, and if you look at the largest um proportion of women who are seeking abortion, um, that 18 to 28-year-old, they are on their phones, right? And that's why the telehealth, telemedicine abortion industry is booming because they capture them where they're at with boundaries, answer their crisis the way that it was Googled on their phone or in Safari, right? And so the ability to uh counsel them and change their mind, you have to be able to do it in the media and platform that they're on, their phone in a chat, right? Or in a video chat. And right now there's only one organization out there that's doing that, and that's Infinite Worth 24-7 nurse chat. And they are trained in the Ottawa decision-making guide to counsel women in crisis where they're at on their phone with sound information. They're also a resource that women can and have gone back to to get additional counseling days later. Where the goal is for these nurses to get them to go into their pregnancy center that's closest to them and have an ultrasound and meet with a counselor. It's often that these women that reach out to a nurse on their phone are going back to talk to that nurse, whoever their whatever their name is, um, and ask for them because they created that connection, that ability to trust them. They felt heard in the moment that they were seeking help. And so, yeah, there's a way to um counsel them into changing their mind right where they're at. So it doesn't have to be face to face in a pregnancy center either.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I do believe I I yeah, I that resonates with me as being true that someone receives care by being heard and respected, and especially when it seems like women in these situations are often found, yeah. Having someone who will listen and provide care is not is not a common um variable, I don't think, in these situations. Like it would be nice if it was, but it doesn't seem like it is.
SPEAKER_04Yep. And that's where learning any options counselor, whether you're in the pregnancy center or online or wherever you're encountering these women, hearing what their needs are and their concerns are and being able to address and redirect so that they feel heard and affirmed, so that then they're open to new information you may give them is all part of that process. And so um I think that there are missed opportunities in the pregnancy center world for centers that are focused solely on abortion-minded or abortion vulnerable. Um, likely to carries, they won't prioritize, unfortunately. But, and it's the same, in my opinion, for pregnancy centers that aren't advertising and offering services for STD testing. I think that they're missing an opportunity to create a relationship of trust in their community with women before their risky behaviors result in an unplanned pregnancy. Because if they're concerned about having an STD, they're engaged in the same exact behavior that could put them in the position of having an unplanned pregnancy. And so look at what the competition is doing to advertise and position themselves as the resource. Planned Parenthood is in the school, they're on the phones, right there on social media advertising, their uh Google ad words are there, they're right popping up when even the um anticipatory ads, you know, where you think that Facebook or Instagram has heard you in your home talking, and then those ads pop up, they're there. Pregnancy centers need to be there on their phone when the same concerns and words and behaviors um are being talked about. And so this all everything that I encourage pregnancy centers to do is good business advice. Know who your competition is, who are they going after? Your customer, your client, right? Your patient, the abortion-minded, abortion vulnerable, at-risk woman, but they're going after her before she's at risk.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, so about six or seven weeks ago, I went to every abortion clinic website that I could as part of a keyword research project. So I went to about 188 abortion clinic websites, and I did collect all the keywords I was looking for, but then I actually found about four things that I didn't expect to find um when doing that research. And one of which, well, well, one was um the going way beyond just the Planned Parenthood. This is going, yeah, I was looking at single office abortion clinics in a smaller county or normal-sized county. And I would say a high majority, maybe about 70%. I didn't calculate it with data, but I would say a high majority were offering transgender services right there next to abortion. Um, yeah, many of them offered three things like abortion, transgender services, probably hormone blocks or hormone ads, probably not, but maybe surgical. Um, and then lastly, they had a third option that was that seemed relatively normal. Like that was a very common setup for many of these clinics. And and so there's a lot of thoughts to draw from that.
SPEAKER_04Um Planned Parenthood is diversifying their business model so that they can have multiple revenue streams in um that complement that are complementary to their main agenda. Yeah, right? So destroy the family, destroy women, alter their hormones, um, take away masculinity from men, alter their hormones. Um you all of these things work together for their ultimate agenda. So it doesn't, I mean, I and I've been hearing for a couple years that this is their new uh revenue stream is the hormone altering therapies. Um and they for them that's a complementary business.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it and it seems like the also it feels like they're bolstering their abortion industry or business with this this leg, this supporting leg with the LGBTQ um, you know, essentially this this the strong support to try and not let the abortion table f tip over. And and then it also seems like if you replace uh someone's um yeah, essentially these are lifetime services, these aren't single single rounds. Abortion is a single set for the most part. Um and these are ongoing services that someone will endure I I I think for a lifetime. Um it also it's also making it so people can't reproduce by altering their genitals. Um and then if a man replaces his uh genitals with an open wound, I mean that's a lifetime of care. If someone's getting hormone ads, that's a lifetime of care, probably, if they wanted to continue.
SPEAKER_04Um and so it's part of their business model, that's their revenue plan.
SPEAKER_01It's also interesting that uh uh you know, people who work at an abortion clinic are willing to do other procedures of the same ethical standard or same lack of morals. And so it's also interesting that pregnancy clinics are often located next to these abortion clinics, and it's also interesting how sidewalk counseling and pregnancy clinics are providing a healthier alternative for someone to walk into that abortion clinic to go somewhere healthier and better. And and so to me, I feel like maybe in 1.2 years, maybe in less than two years, but I would say like let's say 14 months, pregnancy clinics may start doing referrals to mental health counseling and psychological counseling for someone to take on these um you know these thoughts.
SPEAKER_04And also it feels like the Oh, you're talking about people taking the puberty-altering drugs?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, blocks and ads and surgeries. But uh also I think um Yeah, it it seems like uh that's I think referrals to mental health and then but really in the end uh I've been doing some research and trying to find if if there's a network of uh psychologists or counselors that that will uh help someone detransition, whether that means going from an L, a G, a B, or a T to normalness or towards Jesus or towards uh an H for hetero. Um it seems like there's some laws being passed on blocking detransition. And and so having someone who will provide a detransition is not something to be assumed because it may it it's it comes with its it comes with professional risk, it sounds like.
SPEAKER_04Right. So what we need are more mental health nurse practitioners that can look at the physical and mental health of these um individuals. And we're well, so that's a need in a country where we already have a mental health provider shortage. Um, I would absolutely love this next generation who absolutely adore Jesus, that are on fire for God, waiting to hear what God has called them to do, learn how to be a Christ-centered mental health counselor that can then work in adjacent to, just as you're suggesting, pregnancy health medical clinics that also offer mental health counseling. I mean, you have uh in Inverness, Florida, you have Pregnancy and Family Life Center that has three mental health counselors on staff. Um, one is a psychiatrist, and two are counselors, and they also have a USDA food pantry, and they do STD testing and ultrasound and pregnancy tests by nurses. So they are trying to answer that need for their community, um, but they don't have an abortion clinic in town. You have to go to Tampa or Orlando for that, so it's an hour drive. But they live in a rural community where they are busy all the time. So for pregnancy centers to determine what is the need in their community, what is the uh how can they staff it, how do they need to recruit, and to match the particular profile and culture of the community in which they live. That's a great business model. So being a pregnancy center in one city may mean different services and staff and abilities to serve the women that come to you versus in another community. That maybe one's urban versus rural. One has abortion minded women that are 28 and older and have two kids already, and they're the ones looking for abortions because their husbands left them and they're low income. um or there's drug issues or domestic violence. Then you have um a college town where you've got 18 to 24 year olds, the one in five that become pregnant in college and can't remain in college or choose not to or choose to terminate versus remaining. I mean, so every pregnancy center based on their location has a different demographic that is predominant for them. And having the services that serve those women and that profile is absolutely necessary. I totally agree with you. That and evolving to address the next frontier um of the transgender issue is something that pregnancy centers need to be thinking about in their strategic planning.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and I and I think having identifying a a counseling or psychologist who will counsel based on the rock of Jesus more so on the shifting stands of culture is really important to find. And I believe and I I expect that it'll become there'll be there'll be an increase in these referrals and then there'll be and then yeah there'll be a growing increase of people on staff providing that care. And I think the referrals will naturally come first because those are really a lot easier to start with. And then as as the need is shown and and you know as the um as the buy-in grows I think then the in in-house services will become uh will start to grow. And I I expect uh in-house services will be two plus years down the road as they start to grow. And it's it's exciting to hear some people have already um are potentially blazing tra you know blazing new trails for people to follow but I expect people won't be following for a a while because it takes time to to get to that spot. Yeah in the pregnancy center well so another thing that I found and I really want to share this with you because I want to hear your thoughts so I came across a website called tsthealth dot com or dot org probably dot com. I gotta pull it up now so I can correct yeah dot org. So TST Health stands for the Satanic temple health and this is one of the abortion clinics it's actually based out of Salem Pennsylvania Salem somewhere and it does all of its services in New Mexico. It targets New Mexico and I think that's because Mexico has the least number of laws from my understanding or a very low number of laws at least compared to other states. It's not that they have pro-abortion laws they simply have a lack of laws in comparison to other states. All that's to say is that yeah they're targeting New Mexico it's based off an East Coast EIN number or East Coast entity and it's literally called the satanic temple and they do e-health all over the internet and on their about page they literally call it on their about page it says who is TST health and what is the abortion ritual and and then down the page a bit then it says yeah like what is what is the satanic temple.
SPEAKER_04But it's interesting that that is really child sacrifices to Moloch and they are um monetizing child sacra for sacrifice.
SPEAKER_01Claiming religious freedom to yeah for their so all that to say is that is one of our competitors and I believe their position not only in Mexico because of the lack of laws it seems to me like it's also because it's next to Texas um and with Texas I don't know it just feels like that's a part of that strategy for at least West Texas. Whereas yeah the um East Texas would probably go to Illinois I think. But all that to say is that's interesting.
SPEAKER_04Are they in Las Cruces?
SPEAKER_01Well no it's eHealth so I don't think it's it's not targeting a specific city I don't think.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01It might be actually now that I think about it it might have said Las Cruces.
SPEAKER_04If it is then I already know who's in the fight against them.
SPEAKER_01It just says it does not say what part of New Mexico so that was an interesting finding just the fact that we have a competitor who's literally called the Satanic temple. That was something I did not expect to find um another one that I did not expect to find was a website based out of Texas that's describing how to make abort how to take the second pill of the abortion pill regimen that expels the baby and how to liquefy it. Exactly and how to put it onto a business card and then letting it dry and then with instructions on how to let someone put into a mylar bag put it in places like schools, churches, places where books go uh places where we can have paper in a mylar bag and then the idea was to show people how to make their own and to distribute it. With the idea is it's just um almost it almost seemed unreal but it's not it actually is it it's it it all it seemed like a parody at first. The fact that someone would do that like a really bad parody. And anyways that was a website I also came across looking for all of the abortion quantum websites I could find. And the idea is that it yes essentially putting that liquid onto a business card and then there's like there's a drawing of a quad these quadrant so someone could cut it out, put that piece of paper into their mouth letting it dissolve over an hour and then repeating it several times. So you essentially do do it yourself side attack at home and they also uh insert it uh into themselves um vaginally and then um or put it on the inside of their mouth the buckle mucosa this one was doing for the inside having one piece on the left one piece on the right and leaving it there for an hour for the contents to fully dissolve off the paper.
SPEAKER_04Did it have the dosing is at 400 micrograms? Yeah that's what it was it did have that yeah so and it was repeating yeah so that's the misopristol protocol misopristol only protocol that they are trying to do in states where RU486 is banned or mythop the misopristone is banned. And so again what they're doing is putting women who are pregnant at risk for uterine rupture and um they can bleed out or because they didn't take the RU486 they will deliver a live 12 week old 13 week old I mean I've seen PDFs from Planned Parenthood on how to take the Mrpristol only up to 24 weeks. So you think of delivering a six month old child in your dorm room on your own that's fully alive. You just induced delivery that's all you did.
SPEAKER_01And essentially yeah and it's gonna and essentially we're yeah they're putting these into places where people can find them. So there's there's there they don't even know who's going to pick them up you don't know who made it. Yeah and then one of the last findings that I came across was that there were a lot of funding websites. A lot I did not expect it to be like 80 ish funding websites per travel abortion there were funding websites per state and per and per um foundation a lot of states had a funding site and a lot not all states I don't I wouldn't say all states but several states and a lot of foundations funding for what abortion to essentially allow someone to either apply for funds to cover their procedure or abortion decision or for someone to donate and pay pay for someone else's um as a way of financing and gr and um supporting this. Yeah that was a lot there I didn't I didn't see I have not come across that before in previous years. Yeah but it's interesting though when you when you talk about yeah the eHealth how yeah the satanic temple has um yeah they have fully embraced because it's someone on the east coast yeah a group out of the east coast who's formed out of the east coast at least who knows if they actually live there maybe they live in New Mexico but they're literally targeting New Mexico I believe they're targeting New Mexico because it's the less it has the least amount of risk for them.
SPEAKER_04That's my my gut talking I think that's why I'd have to go through and see what states they're functioning in and see if they have certificates of authority in those states if they're um receiving money to operate and yeah anyway that's you know they have a license staff yeah I don't know that's a good those are good questions. Um yeah because when I hear e-health it makes me think that someone from anywhere could take that service but what what you're saying is it sounds like someone has to have yeah you can't just go you can't connect with a medical group anywhere you need to they need to have authority you have to have a telehealth medicine license or telehealth license some states some states if it's nurse only level care then um they can be part of the nursing compact if they're not a compact state but there are some states that you you can have a nurse under the compact doing telehealth but the physician that's supervising the work they're doing under standing orders has to be licensed in the state in which the patient is receiving health care or telehealth advice. And so there's a difference between telemedicine telehealth and telecare by the way which is a whole nother discussion.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and then I know you know the difference and even though I have heard you say it before I still don't know the difference. But that's okay.
SPEAKER_04So telemedicine okay so telemedicine is when you have a physician or nurse practitioner or PA under the level or a doctor of osteopathy that is diagnosing treating and following up on patient care interactions over telecommunication pathways so the internet telephone uh and so on. So the FCC makes these definitions. Telehealth is typically nursing level social work psychological care counseling and education of a patient uh in making health decisions learning about um health information uh that's telehealth and then telecare is remote monitoring of health information so whether you have a patient with um remote blood pressure monitoring or uh their weight and then their weight and their blood pressure goes to their doctor every day or their blood sugar is remote monitored by their physician's office. Telecare can also be your CPAP machine and all that information that's um transmitted to your sleep doctor that manages that or respiratory therapist whoever is managing those for you that's telecare. So there's three different levels and you have to be very clear yes.
SPEAKER_01So what happens when someone is on the west side of Texas and they contact this group in New Mexico and then travel would they have to travel to New Mexico to receive care even though it's being provided e-health from someone out of the East Coast to New Mexico?
SPEAKER_04And they must yeah what does that mean so no because in Texas I I can tell you what it says in Texas I have it right here. Let's call it Texas There it is Texas before I misspeak.
SPEAKER_01Yeah because I feel like this is some people think that abortions dropped off by 99% after Dobbs or after the heartbeat bill but I I think in reality a lot of people are traveling to the edges of Texas to a I think that's more likely where in Texas they issue um a telemedicine license for out of state providers and to qualify for this out of state telemedicine license um there's a lot of hoops to jump through not the least of which is having passed the Texas medical jurisprudence examination.
SPEAKER_04Then their limits on providing out of state telemedicine practice across state lines is really limited to interpretation of diagnostic testing and reporting so you can I mean if you're a pregnancy center in Texas and you want to have a radiologist in a different state read your scans they can have this telemedicine license issued to an out of state practitioner to read all of your pregnancy center scans. But if you're treating and practicing you must possess a full Texas medical license which means you're subject to the legislative code in the state of Texas with regard to abortion and the heartbeat bill and all the penalties that go with it. So they couldn't do their ealth practice treating from any other state patients who are residing and are physically in Texas when they receive this uh telehealth or telemedicine service without having a Texas license which means they're subject to Texas laws which means they're subject to Texas penalties. Now if these women um drive to New Mexico and contact them that's different um because in New Mexico Okay also issue a licensed physician a telemedicine license to allow the practice of medicine across state lines to an applicant who holds a full and unrestricted uh license in a different state they don't have the same hoops to jump through they can also give them a temporary provisional license and then they are subject to the New Mexico Medical Board statute and the statutes of that state so all they have to be is good standing in the state that they're in. Same with social workers and nurses.
SPEAKER_01Interesting well I really appreciate you being on here today Sean this was another good conversation didn't go over too many people's heads no this is this is good I think this is something that Princeton clinic directors and leadership and boards really need to consider because this is where we are this is the you know the post row we're we're in a we're in a new era where people travel across state lines and where people um we're you know we're fighting there's a you know the the fight has shifted in different ways there's there's new attacks on word choice you know our opposition's trying to pass um misinformation laws they're trying to you know essentially fight require us to be quiet or require us to not be effective when through through laws and legislation. And and really we're fighting for image you know people who are created in the image of God who reflect the image of God and and their moms reflect the image of God the dad and we're we're fighting for people to yeah to find joy to find really to find Jesus. That's it's not it's not Jesus plus really in the end that's that's the goal line is Jesus by by himself and in order to be connected with relationship with God. And so anyways thank you for being on here and sharing and talking and taking on these hard topics.
SPEAKER_03Let's talk about state pregnancy center coalitions next time we talk.com the ProLife Team podcast is a ministry of iRapture.com if you would like to explore making a donation or becoming a sponsor or have a recommendation for who would be a good guest on the podcast please contact
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