The ProLife Team Podcast
The ProLife Team Podcast
The ProLife Team Podcast 69 | Ron Brown & Jacob Barr | An Abortion Debate: ProLife vs ProChoice
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So this is a legal insert. So while editing this podcast from last night and sort of spilling over into this morning, in the middle I received an email from a previous podcast guest, uh Pastor Melanie. And essentially it was with a suggestion that maybe I should have something that says the views expressed in the interviews are not necessarily those of iRapture, maybe those of the host, those of the pro-life team podcast. And so I think that's very timely, and I feel like God's fingerprints were on this email because I was literally working on an episode where it's a pro-choice person and a pro-life person engaging in dialogue and conversation. Um and so obviously um IRF.com does not share um the beliefs uh the of you know of this pro-choice side. And so here I am adding in the uh disclaimer text to say, yeah, some of the views expressed in this podcast um do not reflect upon the host or the sponsor or the um organizations and companies that make it so that we can that this podcast can take place. And so um, yeah, without further ado, let's hear the podcast. Welcome to the ProLife Team Podcast. I'm here with Ron Brown, and we're gonna be talking about pro-life and pro-choice arguments. This this show will also be posted on Ron Ron's YouTube channel as well as the ProLife Team uh podcast uh channel. And so I hope that you find this interesting and please comment as you have thoughts and things for us to discuss next time we talk.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, well, so the like I I kind of pitched this to you, right? Yeah, and because it's like I've been thinking lately that it's so important to be able to have friends who disagree with you. Um, because it's like you're pro-life and I'm pro-choice, right? So like you might follow different strands of information than I follow, and vice versa. And so I may like it's like on my side of things, like I'm probably seeing my side at its best and your side at its worst. My side at its smartest, yours at its most ridiculous, and you're seeing the exact opposite. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01That's a good point, yeah. Because a lot of us, yeah, I can I can totally imagine how that would play out. Yeah. And I because I'm always forgiving my side ridiculousness because I know that there's something better, and then and I'm probably holding on to the the ridiculousness of the other side's worst because that helps support my viewpoint.
SPEAKER_00Well, and in this, yes, what it's like is there's some confirmation bias, and then in psychology, they have this thing called the fundamental attribution error, which basically means when you or someone you like does something well, you attribute it to their character. But when they do something poorly, you're more likely to blame it on their circumstances. But when someone on the other side does something good, you might ignore it or just minimize it, like, oh broken clock theory, or you know, they only did it because somebody was watching them, but if they screw up, evil. Right? And so, but yeah, like so. The idea was that it's like I think a good thing with us is like like you and I, we each knew we were on opposite sides of this right away. Like, well, like soon on.
SPEAKER_01But I wouldn't I would just uh fact yeah, I wouldn't say complete opposite, true, because like if uh if let's say um we have positive 10 all the way to negative 10, right, and let's say one of those sides is uh pro-life all the way to pro-choice. Right, right, right. I would put you closer to like let's say on that scale, um, more of like about a three on your side uh past zero.
SPEAKER_00I would yeah, so I'm definitely pro-choice, but I'm not like like well, it's like I showed you that article I once put up on a Reddit group where it's like all the things that people on my side do that are embarrassing me, and one of them is assuming that people like you must hate women. But yeah, so the idea is that we have this relationship that goes way beyond this one particular area of not full of disagreement. And you know, we're a part of a wonderful church where we're filming from right here, so we have a vested interest in maintaining harmony in the church and harmony with each other. And I think because we know each other in this community, we know each other in 17 other ways other than this disagreement. And so while we may disagree with each other on this thing, it's like each one of us has seen the other be a good person in many other contexts. And so we can't easily write each other off as bad people or stupid, and nor do we want to, but compare that to if we if you and I were just anonymous people on the internet um hiding behind our keyboards, it's like the only way we know each other is this disagreement right now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there wouldn't be any uh rapport or uh relationship to lean on to to navigate. And and I think it's important for people to, when they're talking, to you know, to include common ground and not to focus only on the differences because that just simply creates a battlefield more so than like a communication of back and forth. Right, right. Um it's also interesting that uh you know you've you've gone through some a lot of changes in the past eight to ten months, or when did you when did you uh yeah, can you give us like the snapshot of your your your journey, uh your ro you know, your road to Damascus journey?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was one of those. Uh I started uh coming to this church like last July as an atheist just because I wanted community. And you know, I learned from people like Jordan Peterson that there's a lot of wisdom in the Bible and Christian practices, and not all of it requires you to believe in God to see the value. So I came for those reasons. And then, you know, I won't go into detail, but I, you know, I met a girl here and uh we were dating for a few months and she broke up with me saying that it was because she couldn't get past the atheism. And so I said I'd look into it seriously. I didn't think my mind was gonna change, and I wasn't gonna pretend if it didn't. Um, and I th I thought the odds were awful. Like I used to be an atheist activist, I'm very intellectual. It's not like I've never had 35,000 of these conversations before. And it's like, what are the odds I'm gonna hear a new argument tomorrow that I haven't heard in the last 17 years? Well, I did, and it literally was tomorrow. I mean, but yeah, basically, just to like to nutshell it, um, my best friend, uh, one of my best friends for growing up, he had become a Christian several years ago. He was a scientific rationalist just as I am. He told me that the more he read about uh Christianity and the relevant history, the more he couldn't not believe on rational grounds. And the big thing was he showed me the old testament prophecies of the uh birth, life, death, the resurrection of Christ. And like he just showed me, like, in every way that you want to dismiss this, it doesn't work well. Like, what the Jewish people, they're gonna let you re-edit their Torah to make them look wrong, like that's off. Like, are the guards gonna like pull a reverse Epstein and fall asleep in the job so Jesus can come back to life? Well, that probably would have got them killed. Uh, like any way you look at it, that's kind of what made me think this is a reasonable faith. Am I certain it? No. But before I used to think it was just a vacuous faith, now I think it's a reasonable faith.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Yeah, I think that's a good backstory to what brought us to this point of this podcast. So, um, would you like to go first, or would you like me to go first with presenting an argument? Like I could present an argument for why I think abortion is wrong or unacceptable, or would you like to go first for why you would present it as What about this? What if we we'll do that?
SPEAKER_00Or we could we could summarize our current maybe stances. How about this? What if I try and make your case for you as well as I possibly can, and you try and make my case for me as well as you can?
SPEAKER_01That would be hard for me to because I I I actually I've never tried to argue the pro-choice side legitimately, and so I'm I'm sort of that might be I I I would probably be sp I would probably spout off some false beliefs that I don't really believe in.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, okay, well just like you know, pretend we're in debate class. You've been assigned you know, you don't have to agree with it, but you have to defend it. And I and me too. Want me to go first? Sure. Okay, so my version, like it's gonna be relatively quick uh for me. Um like one you could go the religious route, like you can certainly cite verses in the Bible like, you know, thou shalt not kill, um, and that will uh impress a lot of people. Um I personally don't want to lean on those kind of arguments. You know, we live in a country of separation of church and state. I like the way Sam Harris puts or sorry, uh Ben Shapiro puts it, where he says when he even if his position is religiously informed as him being an Orthodox Jew, he will never make the policy arguments with and by invoking the text because he realizes that a lot of Americans do not accept his text as being authoritative. So he will always put it in secular terms. And then further, there's other religions who have different views on abortion. Um, so why prioritize one over others? So what I will do, but like so secularizing the argument, I think your position can be summarized in an understandable way very easily. You should not kill human life, this is a human life, don't kill it. Or let me rephrase that. You should not kill innocent human life, this is innocent human life, don't kill it. The syllogism is just completely straightforward.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I I would say the approach argument might be um that yeah, I I I would imagine someone thinking maybe God doesn't exist, and therefore um there is no moral compass to to to make decisions based off of. So I'm going to make decisions however I want. Um but I'm uh I'm sort of new at trying to argue the pro-choice side. But I would I would think it would be a matter of removing yeah, removing the moral in the morality of how, you know, if if you if you were to say I don't believe in the Bible, if I yeah, if I said I don't believe in the Bible, yeah, I don't believe in God, and that would support me doing, you know, where's the moral compass come from? And so therefore, for people who don't believe in God, um I I I still think that, yeah, I I'm seeing all sorts of holes in my arguments, and so it's actually really hard to argue for the opposite of what I really believe and think. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, well, and an atheist would say too about, yeah, I know that because I was one. Um, and I still have a lot of sympathy for this argument, which is that we don't get our values from the Bible. When we read the Bible, like we already have a certain set of values, and that's why we hyper-emphasize certain verses and explain away a whole bunch of others. You know, it's like we're cherry-picking our way through. Um But yeah, well, do you so do you wanna like a um do you want to add a so I I made the best case I could for your side. Is there anything you'd add to that? Like, and is there any way you could have made it even better than I that I understood?
SPEAKER_01So I would say I would actually add back in, even though maybe Ben Shapiro leaves it out to be have that secular, I would actually say um the reason why abortion is wrong is because there is the come, you know, the c I would say it's founded in the truth, and the truth, you know, the the Bible is an ultimate source of like ancient law or ancient truth that's been around for a long time. And and and it says in the Ten Commandments, you know, thou shalt not kill, which is directly, yeah, it's very clearly speaking to abortion along with other killing. Um it also I believe that um a a each person is made in the image of God, and that's also coming from biblical text. And so the reason why someone should not, you know, why why abortion is wrong is because the child who is in the womb and being threatened is made in the image of God, which gives them value, and and the Bible also says, thou shalt not kill, which is a direct commandment from from God brought down from yeah, on the Ten Commandments.
SPEAKER_00So I I get that, but I guess then we start getting into things like tyranny of the majority. So this is a country that is technically it's a country of separation of church and state, but it's also a country that's majority Christian, right? And so let's say like a Christian majority agrees on something, like if it's just a straight democratic vote for the policy, then it's there you're gonna have a tyranny of the majority kind of situation. And I I th that's I think one of the particular that that's what the um the the Bill of Rights and the you know all all the constitution are all about protecting against like those kind of things, like so like you know, everyone is granted free speech, for example, uh, you know, no establishment of real of one religion as being authoritative. And so it's like even though I get like that, like you have your position and it's informed by your religion, right? But I I'm very nervous about applying one person's religious beliefs, like enforcing them on others. It's kind of like you wouldn't want like like if if if Muslims uh started like becoming very like um like common in Tucson and like city ordinates were put in place that reflected Islamic law. Like I I imagine you don't want to have to follow the rules of a religion that you don't subscribe to.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, I I probably I don't think I'd want to follow the religious rules of a religious religion I don't subscribe to. But when it comes to you know not killing, that's that that's also been established, that's established law. And I don't think anyone is saying we should we should you know overturn that law and make and make killing people um or murder making homicide um legal. I don't hear anyone arguing that we should make homicide legal. So I don't think that that's really an issue here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that's where I'm most comfortable with your argument. So like that what everything you just said was 100% secular. Okay, so like like like to me, like that's like great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But and uh and but as a person, as a person who could run for political office or as a person who has ideas, um the you know, my beliefs are weaved into my thoughts and my my position. And so for me, um, I can say this is why I believe things. Yeah. And it's not really up to me to figure out why someone else should, you know, believe that. But at least for myself, I can say it's because of religious text is very important to you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No, it's and it's a tough one too, right? Because it it's like, in a way, it's like it's a democracy. Who cares why you want something? If you want something, you vote for it, right? Um, but then you get into the civil liberties things, tyranny majority. It's very murky, very messy. Yeah. But um, yeah, well, I mean, so how about I'll um return the favor? Also I'll kind of um I'll give you the why I'm pro-choice.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So there's there's a few things. Um one, I guess the biggest thing is that a fetus, for all we can tell, is not conscious. And maybe at a certain point it becomes conscious. Um and so and and so maybe it might even feel the pain of the abortion very briefly. And maybe not even at all. Like at a certain point, definitely almost definitely not at all. Right? So there's that set of priorities, right? Um, but then there's also it's like the mother has to carry this uh fetus for nine months. Um, like, and under no other circumstances do we let someone else like basically commandeer our body and its resources. So the actually I can even think of a counter-argument to that, actually. It's the thing is not only do some pro-life people not like me very much, but some pro-choice people don't either. And it's because I actually like will often argue in favor of the man's right to have a financial abortion because why should she have the ability to forego responsibility and not he? Um, and then somebody it's so funny, it's like sometimes they'll respond back to me by saying if he if he couldn't handle the consequences, he should have kept it in his pants. It's like, oh, I didn't know you were pro-life. When did that happen? I've had that happen so many times.
SPEAKER_01Um, well, let me, I mean, yeah, I'll respond to that one. Yeah, yeah. So when it comes to all of these things, like not being conscious, you know, have or maybe not being aware of their surroundings or whether they feel pain or not, I would just say essentially we're talking about someone at the very beginning of their life. Um, they haven't had a birthday yet. They're they're currently still in the womb, they're they're growing, maybe their heart's fully developed. And for many people, the brain is not fully developed in anything until 25 or 28. But they're you know, but most of the organs are not fully developed until they're, you know, at some point. But then that we all that to say is if we were to walk out a a toddler who is also not able to feel pain or pain, or not aware of their surroundings, or they're aware of their surroundings, um, or that causes their mom lots of sleepless nights, or you know, they're having to do they're doing temper tantrums. I don't think anyone would argue that it's okay to kill the the toddler who would have the same exact, you know, scenarios, perhaps.
SPEAKER_00Well well, because I think in order to make this more equivalent, like it's almost like the toddler would basically have to be in a coma. Like it'd be like the Terry Shivo situation or something, you know, because if the toddler is actually out and moving around and doing things.
SPEAKER_01So if you think about it, toddlers' brains are only two years old. They have 26 more years to develop until their brain is developed. And so for them to not understand, like they they have much greater understanding than let's say a six-week old, like obviously a much greater understanding. Their brain is two years more developed. Right. Um, however, I don't think how much someone knows should dictate, you know, it it being okay to kill them. Like if you compared a toddler to a 21-year-old, you know, the 21 year old would normally be more aware. Would uh would un would probably feel more pain in different parts of their body. Um I don't think I don't think you know how much pain someone feels or how much aware how aware how much awareness they have would say it's okay for us to, you know, oh in the case of homicide, we're not going to investigate the toddler being killed.
SPEAKER_00Well, I guess it's so it's like in a lot of times you ever notice when you're making these arguments, like you it's like you have your starting position and then you find arguments for it second. Like like I I do that. And I but I try and be honest about it, right?
SPEAKER_01But uh my starting point is walk out the toddler compared to the you know, the pre-born uh child who's yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so the the toddler though is sentient, right? So that's a difference, right? Uh and so if if that was illegal, then we would set the precedent that it is okay to kill innocent sentient agents. Whereas if it's a fetus, we don't have to believe that it's sentient. Like, you know, especially in most abortions are are performed rather early, right? So they're not like anywhere close to the 26, 26, 8, 28. Like some of them happen then, but like the over I think it's like 90% or something happened by I think 12 weeks, something rare.
SPEAKER_01Well, even if it happens, let's say, you know, moments after conception, and we're talking about could be as small as a single cell organism at that point, like you know, and it and it doubles and then it you know doubles again. Um, but let's say we're you know all the way back. I mean, essentially that that's a new life, a new person, a new DNA that's been created, and it's going forward unless you stop it, which is what Kinley is, right? Yes, prematurely stopping it or ending it. Right.
SPEAKER_00And and if you don't stop it, then it will continue into a person who could then create generations of and then like an atheist pro-choice person might respond to that by saying that um, you know, like a sizable percentage of conceived uh of conceptions end in like uh miscarriages, and so that would make God the most prolific abortionist of all time, and all that they would say that. Um and um They would also like say it's like, well, since like fetuses frequently don't make it, but I guess the response is nobody gets like people get upset if a if a tree blows over and crushes your car. But it's not the same thing as if if some person goes and just starts smashing it up at the baseball bat. Like you can't punish the wind. It wouldn't do anything. But you certainly can deter people from smashing up people's car by throwing them in jail for it.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I think it was I remember watching listening to an episode by Jordan Peterson who was talking about the difference between evil and um what was the other word? Essentially like the difference between like a volcano ruining a city compared to a um someone who intentionally ruined a city through homicide or something. Exactly. So the d there's a difference between uh tragedy and evil. So like so a miscarriage would be tragic, yes, but it wasn't caused by a person with an intentional action. Yeah. And so that's whereas if someone intentionally ends the life of a child, then that would be in the lines of evil compared to it having. Happening based on that based on nature, then that would be more like tragic, but not necessarily evil.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, volcanoes aren't sentient. The person setting off the bomb is. So that was one part of the sentience. It wasn't everything though. Um there was also um that they're not part of any social relationships yet, right? So and nor do they have any life plans. So it's not like you're ruining the plans, their big vision for their future, they don't have it. It's not like you're taking them away from the uh people they have relationships with. They are like eight months away or six months away from having their first relationship, right? So it's not going to be disrupting relationships.
SPEAKER_01And so in a lot of ways, the idea is it's but it's sort of it's completely disrupting uh relationships because they're not even gonna have the opportunity to create plan. Right.
SPEAKER_00No, of course, execute that. Yeah, well, so for other people's relationships with the baby, it's the they might a pro-choice person would say a woman is not uh responsible for ensuring that you can have a relationship with her baby. Like that's not her duty if she doesn't want it to be. Uh that that they could say that. Um but I I guess another thing is that basically it's like in this case, the primary victim is the aborted fetus, who uh is a part of no social relationships. And so there's well that's one thing. Uh they they they will feel little or absolutely no pain, but and none of their they have no future plans, you know, um to disrupt. I think these a lot of these things they block the setting of a dangerous precedent that can move on to people that are beyond the birth. Um, but I would also say too, is like, okay, so but let's look at the other side, right? If you're like uh a young uh mother or a couple, and oftentimes the guy just screws off, and so often it is her just by herself. Maybe she's 17 or 18, not ready for this kid, um, can't afford, and you know, we live in a society that's very fragmented, families are smaller, people don't they don't participate in great communities like ours, so they might feel and actually be relatively alone. Like that's gonna really just alter the course of the mother's life amazingly. Like, like, and and it could be bad. It could be good, but it could be very bad. Yeah. And then how and then like the you know, like the people around her who now have to kind of like jump in to help her out because it's such a big challenge. There's the uh the guy, if he is involved, you know, is he paying child support, all that kind of stuff? And and then also it's like what kind of it's not a good idea, I don't think. All else sequel, it's better for parents to want the child and be excited to have them than for them not to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I think again, I think it's based off of size, placement, you know, the fact that they're small inside the womb, we're we're somehow treating them as a different treating them differently than if they were to be outside the womb and slightly larger. And and so when it comes to that mom, you know, thinking, you know, how can who are we to say that she shouldn't be able to, well, have one less financial burden by having a child, I I would I would just say we wouldn't apply that to a toddler. We wouldn't, but we wouldn't apply that to we wouldn't apply that to her 18-year-old who's eating her out of house and home because he's you know growing and just eating a lot. But you know, here we are, we're applying it to a small child who is consuming a lot less than one of her older children might be consuming. And but but the based on how much someone eats is not a reason to kill them. Um based on the the you know, based on the fact that they're going to require time and energy is not a reason to kill them. Yeah. Um most most pregnancies are based on two people wanting to be together. And so the fact that the pregnancy took place, it's already, it's already, you know, the the the mom, that that person is already a mom. She's already pregnant. And it's not like we can ending the pregnancy as a way of saying ending the life of the child who it's like we're essentially we're the pro-choice argument is arguing to support m mothers in and ending their offspring's life. And I feel like that's uh that definitely falls into that evil category more so than the tragic.
SPEAKER_00I can see why you're coming from there, yeah. Like it's like like like I view it differently, but like what you're saying is not ridiculous. It make and I totally get why someone would genuinely believe it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um and and I and I so what when it comes to abortion, do you think all abortions are okay, or certain abortions are okay and certain abortions are not okay? How would you define where you stand in this?
SPEAKER_00So like technically like and I think you're already kind of showing the consequences of my logic here uh by extending it to toddlers, like right. And like I'm not sure if it goes as far as that, but I will say that like every argument I said would be completely consistent with being able to kill the baby when he was halfway out of the feed out of the uh the the uterus. Okay, you know, because like everything I said about like you know, the the thing a few months ago still applies now. Like maybe they might feel a little more pain, but again, it's like a few seconds, at worst, over. Right? Um, and so that's bad, right? And so it's kind of like we've talked about how with you, I think you're pretty okay with abortion and cases of rape, things like that. No. No? Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And but at the same time, that's probably under one percent.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I'm not gonna use that as an excuse to justify all the others.
SPEAKER_01I'm not gonna pull that up. But actually, I know a speaker, I met him at a conference a few months ago. His name is uh Stephen Thin, and his mom w was gang raped, and he is the child that came from that, and his story is amazing. And I would just say that his life has great purpose. Okay. And for me just to assume that anyone that would be the product of rape would be essentially um diminishing Stevenson's um um life. And and his name is so unique. I don't know anyone else with the name Stevenson. Like it's a very unique spelling. I think there's only one on the internet, only one Steventhon. Easier to find him. He is easy to find. Yeah. Um, but I would just say, like, you know, st you know, the story of someone who has yeah, whose mom was in that scenario, and the fact that his life has great value represents a really interesting counter-argument to how many people will just simply say it's okay to kill the child based on the fact that the the dad or the father raped the mother. Okay. Um and then yeah, rape and incest.
SPEAKER_00Like those are the two arguments, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they and they get used to justify pro-choice across the board. It's like, okay, that's the margin of the case.
SPEAKER_01Where where else do we use the the one percent to justify the ninety-nine percent by Wall Street? Okay, well, I mean but it's it's logically that it's it's logically.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're using the exception to justify the majority.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And I would even argue that the exception can be used to at least argue the exception, but maybe we should focus on in instead of complicating things beyond um Yeah, and we we could probably use the normal case to argue for the normal case.
SPEAKER_00Right, exactly. And like I think like I've seen Steven Crowder, who's also pro-life, talking about how he's like, fine, I will accept all those marginal cases. R, you know, abortion after rape and incest, fine, no problem. Danger to the mother, fine, no problem. I will grant you that collective one or less percent of the cases. Now let's talk about the other 99 that doesn't work. I know that you know, but it's like let's separate those two, which is what whereas a lot of pro-trayers like to conflate them and treat them all as this big one big amorphous package that that that's a package deal.
SPEAKER_01Um Yeah, like there's cases of uh forced abortion, such as um, you know, someone, let's say someone's being sex trafficked and they are they got impregnated by, you know, by having a pimp forcing them to have sex 15 times a day, and they're they're being you know, they're using the abortion as a way of treating, you know, so they can get back to, you know, back to being used in the sex trafficking world. I uh there's like there's you know, there's there there's there's so many layers of issues with some some scenarios where we really need to focus on the woman getting out of that entire space and provide, you know, and finding healing. And there's a lot there's other issues that are you know really important to address. Um and like that would that's really hard to consider and think about. Like it, but at the same time, then there's Stephen Thin who was born and his mom was in a terrible situation, but yet his life still has this amazing value, even though the circumstances of his conception were horrific.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Um in a way, like it's a like obviously I disagree with you on this one, all right? But I will say I even like the entire time I've been pro-choice, which has been the entire time that I've had an opinion on it one way or the other, I've always had a certain measure of respect for people that say what you just said, because at least you're being consistent. It's like the whole thing is this is an innocent human life. Well, even like the fact that his dad or her dad was a rapist, like we're gonna punish her for that or him for that. Like that's a so like in a way it's like I re I appreciate the consistency and I see that that that follows from the beliefs.
SPEAKER_01And I think everyone that is looking to choose abortion, well, it may not be rape, but let's say they have other, you know, they have a lot of complex, like they feel like they have no other choice. Like they feel like they they can't afford something. They have that they have all these plans, they're you know, let's say they're selfish. They have there's something that's driving them to want to choose abortion or feeling like they must choose abortion. Right. And I think that the the argument of rape is just one out of many that drives someone to that that to that conclusion. I and I think a lot of it comes from, you know, when planned parenthood says, Are you ready to be a parent? Well, that's a pretty loaded question because who's really ready to be a parent? Like if you honestly, if you asked all the parents out there who already have kids, were you ready? I would say most parents would say, I wasn't ready, but I'm really glad I did.
SPEAKER_00Like that's a that'd be a common answer. Or they might say, I was as ready as I reasonably could be. Best case scenario, right?
SPEAKER_01Or I wasn't ready and it, you know, and God is bigger than me being ready, or there's you know, there's grace, and I it took me a 10 years to figure out how to be a good parent. Like that's like that's a response that I could imagine hearing quite often. Totally. And just because someone's not ready doesn't well, the the reality is that they're already pregnant, they're already a mom, yeah, and then they're thinking, well, yeah. Well, Planned Parenthood essentially is saying, you know, you can you can not be pregnant, but in the reality is that they're already pregnant. Like to stop pregnancy would happen before pregnancy, not to end it in the middle is a way of having an abortion or killing.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Um so I'm I'm gonna praise you about one thing. Um, but before I do that, like I I've been I've been being very complimentary to you this whole time. And so I know there's some pro-choicer out there who hates me right now because I'm not because I'm not destroying you and I'm being way too nice to you. So, you know, I I will just restate, you know, like my position is based on like I essentially I guess it boils down to what will uh create the most human well-being with the least human cause cost. And for that reason, to me, the answer is pro-choice. But what I will say here, and here's the here's the compliment for you, is one of the big criticisms uh from pro-choice people, particularly pro-choice people on the left, is you Republican conservative Christians, you only care about the baby when it's in the womb. Once it's born, you're on your own. You don't want to help them, you don't you want low taxes, you don't have to pay for anyone else's stuff. Well, you work for a pregnancy price crisis leader.
SPEAKER_01We do. We work for well, we well, I have a company that works for sub Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at the same time, I feel like if you try and say, well, you know, if you were to go to the uh, let's say the um an anti-cancer group, and you told them, well, you need to also fix, you know, why aren't you fixing poverty? Why aren't you fixing world, you know, world hunger?
SPEAKER_00And well, but I get the point of the pro choice because it's like, you want to force me to have a child I don't want, and then you don't want to help me with the child. You are not that. You are like your organization is like basically, doesn't it basically amount to saying we understand it's hard to have a child when you're nowhere near ready? We're here to help you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So so pregnancy centers will provide parent free parenting classes. Right. They provide free resources while someone's pregnant, like uh ultrasound and pregnancy tests and and counseling. Yeah. They also will provide usually um, like if someone takes a parenting class, they earn what's called mom, you know, mommy bucks, which they can then spend in the store to buy clothes, yeah, um cribs, uh, materials, diap, you know, they get they can get free diapers and formula, and that's but usually but the whole point of these Pacy Clinics is to help people that are currently facing a crisis because they're looking to choose abortion because they think they have no other choice. Yeah. But then these other services are secondary, but they're often provided. Right. Um, but they're not the focus of the work. The focus is to sort of like help the you know, the mom who's experiencing this burning building scenario, and they're trying to help her get out before they try and help her with the next steps.
SPEAKER_00And I do appreciate you guys coming in to say, look, we don't want you to do this, but we're gonna help you get through the difficulty. Like that's noble, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and there's yeah, and there's and I would just say that when it comes to helping people down the road, um uh people who are pro-life would, you know, love to help someone with whatever they can. I mean, that's part of that's part of just doing what we're called to do. Um, and very often that sometimes might mean connecting someone with a community of people who they can then lean on and also eventually help others with you know being the support eventually.
SPEAKER_00And that's those are the things that most people like uh well, a lot of people these days, they don't have a good community. Like if if a woman in this church, our church, were to become accidentally pregnant tomorrow and didn't want to have didn't you know, wanted to have the baby, but was just terrified because maybe she's 20 and is nowhere near ready, like she's got a whole community of people here that are gonna support her. And but like this church is a special place. Like the level of it's like a big family, like people like we spend three hours, three and a half hours together every Sunday because we do sermon, then we talk and eat together for like two hours. Like we actually genuinely know each other. But if you don't have that, good word.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and yeah, yeah, I would just say that every community, it's just good to spend time and to know each other. Yes. And and it's also good to ask for help. Instead of thinking like, you know, I have no other choice, I would just really, you know, hope that when someone's in that situation, they would think, who could help me or who could I ask? Because just asking someone is a huge step towards finding that help. Yeah. Um, just just making someone else aware that there's a need, yeah. Give that person an opportunity to respond positively or in a helpful way. Absolutely. Absolutely. And there's a lot of people who would love to help. And I like they're just they just don't know. You know, they're it's hard, it's hard to help someone when you're not aware of how to help them.
SPEAKER_00Well, one of the most amazing things in my opinion about our church is that it's it's almost like there's this built-in assumption that everyone in this building is broken in some way or other. I agree. And uh I would be exhibit A in that. Um but um That'd be exhibit B. Like I don't know, like I've been in this church now for like a year and a half, close, maybe not almost. Sure. And I think in that time, I've probably seen, I don't know, five people break down into tears in the middle of a sermon. You know, this a sermon is given and it really touches a nerve with them, and then they'll like make a comment after during the question-answer comment period, and they will break down in tears. Like it doesn't happen often, but it'll happen a few times a year. And they don't lose face. Like it's like you can do that here and feel very comfortable while you're doing it because you know that like people are not gonna think less of you, they're gonna actually come talk to you after it, you know, and then check up on you later. It's like, how are you doing? Yeah, how's the problem? Like, you know, from a a month ago. It's a really good thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think that a lot of that stems from the leadership providing examples of being vulnerable and and sharing uh authentically um with who they are, right? Which allows other people to not feel embarrassed when they also share authentically and show themselves as vulnerable. Um so I was on this I was on the Planned Parenthood sidewalk uh three days ago. Okay. And there was a lady that came up with a sign saying, I am Christian and I support safe abortion. Okay. And so I had a conversation with her. Well, I'd like to call it a conversation, but then we may not have really heard each other.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'll call it a conversation for arguments. You were talking at each other, not to each other. I would have Yeah. I and I would say I did, I am thinking about some of the things that she said. Yeah. However, I don't know if she's thinking about anything that I said. It didn't feel like it I had penetrated her her mind space very well. Right. But um one of the things that she said was, um, aren't you happy that all aborted babies go to heaven? And it felt like the argument was Oh, yeah, because they died innocently, right? Well, and they yeah, like aren't we doing them a favor? We're guaranteed. That was her argument. Yeah, in pro-abortion was aren't you glad that they're going to heaven? And uh and honestly, I am I am glad that aborted babies go to heaven. However, in Romans it says, um uh don't don't sin or don't excessively sin just so that you can have additional grace, or you can you know ask Jesus to forgive that sin too. Because if you do sin, there's grace and forgiveness for those who believe in Jesus. But at the same time, we're we we're not supposed to go and just sin extra, you know, commit additional extra sins just because they can be forgiven. And I feel like that she was using, you know, what she was saying is don't you think it's okay to sin and kill these babies because they're going to heaven and don't you want them to go to heaven? And so I I felt like it was a very twisted um uh comment to make. And I felt like it was intentionally, you know.
SPEAKER_00Well, I guess she's trying to use your religious faith against you. Uh like I would say it is yeah, that argument, actually. Like, like I I got like I could see that. Like I could see I could have seen myself saying that as an atheist. So yeah, I don't begrudge her for that argument.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I I know that she was, you know, taking it and like trying to like you know poke me right there in the side, trying to cause me just enough annoying pain.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so she was being kind of vindictive about it. Like she wasn't talking to you like we're talking right now, like it wasn't friends.
SPEAKER_01We didn't know each other before it was the it was the it was minute one. There was no common ground to be established at all. Zero common ground. If anything, I felt like she we were not of common ground because I felt like her sign was blatantly um full full of false beliefs. Like it I didn't feel like it was genuine or being authentic. I felt like it was designed to attack.
SPEAKER_00I don't think I told you about this story, but yeah, I I was in Seattle a few months ago. I think you knew about that. Okay. And um, so when I was there, I came across two planned parenthood kind of canvassers. Okay. One of them really annoyed me. The other one I was totally fine with. And bear in mind, it's like I'm pro-choice, but I just don't like propaganda and dishonesty. Okay. Right. No matter what side. And I actually, in a way, I hate it more when it's on my side, because it's like you're making my side look bad now. Um, so the one that I didn't the one that I didn't mind was like her pitch to me and my friend as we walked by was, Do you have a minute to talk about how to, you know, protect our rights? Because she's a woman, right? So I'm like, uh we were just like, nah, we're busy or whatever. But I got no problem with that. That I think is an honest point. What was the argument again? She just simply said, Do you have a minute to talk about how how to save our rights? Like save our rights, women, women's rights. Like it was something roughly like that. The I had no problem with that. The one I had a problem with was the one where it's like, Do you have a minute to talk about saving our health care? I'm like, what are you, Bernie Sanders? You know what I mean? Like it's like like like like I I even though I was pro- uh choice, I part of me actually wanted to say, like, I literally wanted to say this. Yes, I'm all about prom um protecting the healthcare of the unborn. How can you and I team up to save the unborn? Like, I just wanted to do that. I wanted to respond with basically with sleet uh with like douchery with douchery. But I I didn't do it, but uh I wanted to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I can uh and I would agree that, yeah, healthcare it doesn't to me choosing abortion um would be more rel would be more authentic to call it the opposite of healthcare than to call it health care. I would say that woman's rights is closer to you know the woman's right to her own body. Well, her body and the baby's body, but let's just yeah, I would I would say that that's yeah, her right to um to legally, you know, the legal right is is more uh is more um closer to truth. Yeah, it's more of a truthful way of calling it. Whereas healthcare, usually healthcare says we're going to save as many patients as possible. We're we're going to not encourage any patient to do harm. We're not going to do any harm to any of our patients. Like that would be like the Hippocratic oath of which is no longer practiced because of abortion, but the Hippocratic oath of saying, we're not going to cause harm to our patients. And and so healthcare, I feel like it should reflect the Hippocratic Oath. But in reality, in today's world, it it doesn't really reflect it it probably reflects money in many instances more so than actually trying to help every patient within the uh the under the authority of a certain doctor.
SPEAKER_00But I I do think it's very easily possible to to make like a a case for abortion that actually is quite on the whole humane. Like I think I've done that. Um you might not agree. That's you probably don't that's that's why we're no that's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But um Would you give me that tea behind you? Oh yeah. Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, is there any Well so I don't I I feel like we're kind of just uh like it seems like it's winding down. But um is there anything you we haven't said that yet that you think we should?
SPEAKER_01Um or talk about Well you did mention you know the the the woman's right to her own body. Right. And and that's a that's a that's a complicated thing because the can can a woman have two hearts? Can a can a woman have um you know essentially when when there's a body inside of her body that has different DNA and and in and different organs is that real I mean it is she is um helping that body develop.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and and so the the response to that by a ProChoicer would generally be it's like look um you don't have a right to commandeer my body sorry my body not yours you don't have a right to siphon off resources for me if I don't want it. That's what they would say and and and I do think that's a fair argument. But yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and in situations like that maybe Yeah that's it um that's a really interest yeah I would say well it's still not right to kill and it would also say um in mo in ninety nine percent of the situations the woman had consensual a consensual relationship which resulted in her getting pregnant and and um it's it's not right to kill. And it it's sort of part of all of us started off as a fetus and or all of us started off as you know in that beginning um as a zygote like a single cell you know beginning and all of us were in that growth stage to our current point. And for us to say well it's okay for you to kill someone else I think is at some levels um not really fair for us to say that about someone else when we here we are enjoying air, enjoying many birthdays and we're saying well someone else doesn't have to have all you know doesn't have to have that opportunity because her mom has other priorities.
SPEAKER_00Even as a pro-choicer I've always respected those t-shirts that say something like it's like you get it for like a baby and it says now that I'm alive I'm pro-choice or now that I'm out of the womb I'm pro-choice. Like it basically it points out exactly what you just said and I'm like that's a clever point. Um yeah but yeah I was gonna say well so so here's like okay this is like I think this conversation is it's second to best case scenario. Best case scenario is that one of us actually changed our mind. That's best case. But but like it's second best we neither one of us have moved I don't think but we're fine with each other and and that's good. That's not you're not gonna find that on the too much. Yeah so what's the common ground that we have maybe that would be a because I I know that we you know here we are we're we're talking about the differences and maybe trying to convince each other but um well I think we both see the other person's side as having validity to it even if we ultimately it's like it's like it's like if you value two things like that like if if you if if we both value apples and oranges but you value apples above oranges and I do the vice versa, like it's like we're both still valuing the same things. It's not like I think you have no point whatsoever. It's just like if you make me choose between apples and oranges I have to make a choice. Uh and it's a forced choice situation here. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um but it's what was I gonna say um gosh go in I'll I'll Yeah yeah and I guess I would say that um trying to trying to convince someone um without knowing you know a a lot of us have like these these roots for why we believe something today and to come in and have a conversation um I would f well first of all I would say yelling doesn't help persuade people. Listening and trying to genuinely understand where someone is is really hard to do. Yeah. I think that's a a more reasonable approach to understanding how to help someone you know maybe you know understand where they stand and then trying to understand a way to can you know persuade them in a way that's positive and helpful and not um belittling or or or um uh yeah just trying to do it in a healthy or positive way. Um but and and I think it's really good for people to be able to talk about it because I very often people will um you know on topics like this the conversation will not take place. And I feel like that's almost like this is where conversation really needs to take place.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And and among people that have relationships that go beyond the current disagreement. Uh I remembered what I was gonna say. So remember earlier I was alluding to you know like you th you do have a point about the issue of like where's the line of continuity? Why is it not okay to kill a a toddler? For some reasons, right? For example, and so I guess it's this is one of those things where um like you have a position that you're very committed to and so do I. And both positions like n neither one of them needs requires you to be stupid or ignorant or evil to believe it. Like it's it's not hard for either one of us to make a case for the other. But it's like you can't not to poorly chosen pun, but we can't really split this baby. Like you would not be happy if we said okay like every time someone wants an abortion we'll flip a coin and if it's heads they get to have the abortion if it's tails it does it I wouldn't be happy with that either. So I how do we have a situation here where one of us doesn't get everything we want and the other one gets totally nothing because that's a dangerous situation. That's going to create resentment and hostility and hatred which is bad for both of us that's where things like compromises come into place. Like that's where I think like you know limiting abortions to early trimesters, uh the like the first or maybe I don't know like certainly not late abortions unless it's like safety of the mother or like safety of you know the infant is showing signs of like you know it won't live long kind of thing. Because it's like if if if I push for like abortion right up to the moment of birth basically I'm showing you no respect at all. I'm showing you no sympathy. I'm showing you that I don't give a crap about how you feel at all.
SPEAKER_01Well how are you gonna feel about that Yeah and I would say that compromise since we live in a world where some people on the scale of negative 10 to positive 10 or you know that scale we have people that would fit into all those numbers. Yes and especially you know especially in that middle zone of like negative five to positive five like that would be a very populated area for a large number of people in our country and then zero like right in the middle where they're undecided just completely ambivalent. Undecided but maybe you know maybe like that would be the person that would say it's okay in the case of um rape and incest but I'm against other abortions that are past like six weeks or ten weeks. Yeah because to me I would put that I'd put that more in the middle because they're supporting abortion yeah just because someone's a few weeks earlier like what if I said Ron you know I I'm I'm okay with someone you know protecting your life today but a few weeks earlier I don't know like that wouldn't make any sense like that that I think intellectually that's dishonest is to say well you're now old enough to be protected like like how is someone different just because they're five weeks earlier like that's that's sort of to me that feels very intellectually well so I I guess so the so I guess you're comment con you're kind of commenting on my whole like you know let's limit it to a certain stage of the pregnancy.
SPEAKER_00The thing is yeah I realize that that's one of those things where it's like it is not perfectly consistent with my position and it's also not perfectly consistent with yours. Yeah our can our positions are unreconcil irreconcilable I think. And so I'm willing to to like have a suboptimal um solution for myself because I know that I have to cooperate with you.
SPEAKER_01Well and I and that's why I believe compromise is important. Essentially I would say compromise is important because if we can save more lives by compromising than by not, then we should compromise to save the most number of lives. However, I would also say it's I'm also not going to be settled or um feeling like we're you know the conversation is done because I feel like there's more to do. So like let's say you know I'm trying to buy a car and I you know I'm trying to get the price lower and so you're you're telling a car for you know a $100 that's a terrible car.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And I go to you and say how about $50? And then yeah you say all right what if we cut it in the middle 75 well then I might say well let's you know I might I'm gonna keep pushing it lower. You're gonna keep pushing it higher. But in the end, um we're essentially revisiting this car being sold back and forth I think when it comes to making laws and trying to negotiate it closer to the direction that we want it to be. And it's a lot different than money like 100 bucks is no big deal but we're talking about lives you're talking about a lot of lives that are in every single community every single state across our country and our country makes up a small amount of the abortions that take place globally like you know there's China and India and there's some places that have just horrific abortion situations where there's a lot of forced abortion people choose they choose abortion based on the sex of the baby because if it's a girl you know a a a Chinese family will often choose abortion because they want the family name to continue. Right. Or India if it's a girl they'll choose abortion because it's almost like getting a debt. Whereas if they have a boy, a boy and when the boy and a girl get married the boy's family gets a dowry which makes it so it's almost like winning the lottery because they get money.
SPEAKER_00Gosh I wouldn't be surprised if that dynamic flips like if if if India and China just not to be crude but just turn into these massive sausage fests every time there's a young married girl every guy in town is going to be Swiss a lot for boys for girls because yeah then you'll you'll have boys and their parents like trying to like you know buy you know like somehow make themselves rise above their their competitors to get and I would think that that represents common ground for someone in the US because I I would think that anyone who's pro-choice in the in America would say picking someone based on their gender or you know their sex would be horrific.
SPEAKER_01I think we could all find common ground there that you know that would be a terrible reason to choose abortion just based on the fact that someone's a girl or a boy you know making letting that decision decide whether or not that person should continue or whether or not they want to try and get pregnant again to get the desired sex.
SPEAKER_00I think a lot I think a lot of pro-choice people would still be fine with it. I and and and yeah no I'm not saying all of them but I think a lot of them still would be and like because I because like all the same I think they would I don't think because that would be that's sexist at the very definition. Like I don't think you can be any more sexist than Yeah I think they I think they would rationalize it away somehow which is that's a good point though because people who are pro-choice are disproportionately feminist and so you'd think they yeah like from that line of thinking yeah yeah you yeah you would yeah that that's not a bad point.
SPEAKER_01Or yeah and in some bad angle yeah and I would say you know having preference over women or men is is not desired but treating them both as remarkable options and not letting you know letting that yeah whether whether someone's a boy or you know as a parent you know if we have if I have a boy or a girl in the end I just I just hope that my child will have opportunities in the future. And you know it's not a matter of you know boiling them down to demographics. It's a matter of like they have a future and and they have life and I should I'm just excited to be a part of it. Yeah. Um but to boil it down to demographic feels demeaning and sort of I don't know just not good.
SPEAKER_00Fair enough. Well that's very consistent with your worldview and your worldview is completely defensible so fair enough. But well yeah I think this was a good conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I agree. Yeah I appreciate you coming on here and having this yeah for both of us to be able to talk about things and so I I definitely will post this on my YouTube channel too.
SPEAKER_00I think it was really useful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and I'll I'll look forward to yeah reading some of the comments that people people share. I think it'd be interesting to hear what they say some pushback on both sides I would expect and I'm not sure what your audience looks like but yeah I'm still learning them.
SPEAKER_00I think I might title the video something like ProChoicer and ProLifer own each other repeatedly.
SPEAKER_01All right man awesome a lot of fun our sponsor for this episode is iRapture.com so is your social presence old and stale do you lack the time and resources to publish fresh content well iRapture.com loves life and does the legwork for pricey clinics reach your abortion vulnerable audience with strategic content marketing tap into our 22 years of experience today that's i R A P T U R E dot com supporting our sponsors like iRapch.com supports the ProLife Team podcast. Thank you.