SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the ProLife Team Podcast. I'm Jacob. I'm here with Jeff and Liam. Jeff and Liam, would you both do a quick intro as to your backstory, your connection with Vitay, and then we'll dive into your recent findings regarding men.

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Yeah, I'll uh I'll I'll jump in first and then Liam, you can follow me up here. But uh um I'm Dr. Jeff Paules, I'm the director of research at Vitay Foundation, and um I've been at Vitay a total of uh a little over seven years and um helped with a number of our studies um in the last uh well, specifically three of the most recent studies, or two of the most recent studies, and then one um going back to 2015, when we really focused in on Planned Parenthood and their move towards healthcare. Um but uh the most recent study we just did was on men, first time we've ever studied uh men, you know, solely as a single group. Uh we had done a couple of studies early on with young men, adolescents, and then um emerging adults, um kind of young young adults. Um but this is the first time we really focused totally on men. So that was exciting. And I had the the wonderful opportunity to work closely uh with Liam. Um so I'll uh Liam, why don't you go ahead and uh introduce yourself as well?

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Yeah, for sure. Well, uh, my name's Liam Siegler. I'm a research and education specialist with the Vitay Foundation. I joined right as we were about to start the men's study, so I've seen it through from start to finish. Um my background is I graduated from school three years ago, degree in political science. I'd done a ton of a lot of journalism, a lot of journalism in the pro-life world. Um, I had led a pro-life student club at my campus. So coming into VTAI was something that just naturally fit with me. Um, I've always been very interested in storytelling, in kind of digging um into the deeper root of things and actually trying to understand issues at the core. Um, so when I joined VTA and I heard that they were studying men and interviewing men, that just really it really intrigued me and it made me want to be part of the process. So um yeah, it's it's been great. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Yeah, so yeah, tell um between the two of you, can you share about your recent that recent study about men? Tell us what you were looking for or what how you know what the process was and and then how it how it went.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Yeah, I'll I'll give a little bit of the background and kind of the the preparation and um you know getting ready for the study, and then um, you know, I can turn it over to Liam to talk a little bit about maybe some some of the the findings that he might like to to talk about, and then I can fill in any any gaps or um any any additional findings that um that uh we can expand on. But um basically this men's study uh the timing was amazing. Uh really, I think um it's it's a tribute to our president, Brandy Meeks, who kind of saw, I think, that the timing was really right for a study focused on men. We had we'd been hearing more and more uh from you know the work that we've done with our pregnancy centers. So um, you know, we Vitay collaborates with a number of pregnancy centers around the country. And then obviously we um I shouldn't say obviously, um, just in case you know people don't know, we have a uh a dedicated website for pregnancy centers called vitault.org. Uh vitault.org. And that's open to any pregnancy center um in the country. It's free. Um you just have to register um you know through the site. And uh there's a number of resources there um that kind of stem from our research and um but also stem from a lot of the uh application um that our uh research application team uh does digital marketing, um you know, blogs, uh content, um, just a lot of free resources. So anyway, I'd point um people to that if they aren't familiar. Um but uh but yeah, you know, Brandy kind of um along with uh you know the work that we've done with the pregnancy centers, seeing that you know some of them were um uh developing and building uh fatherhood programs and um you know uh and they're they're called different things in different pregnancy centers. So, you know, some of them are you know men's um you know, men's counseling or fatherhood or or whatever. Um but the idea that um you know they were seeing that you know men are influential in this um in this decision, you know. You know, when a woman is facing an unexpected pregnancy, that um the man is influential in that. And I think that goes, you know, that's backed up really well um by the um care net life weight uh studies that were done in 2015 and 2021. Um so the the um the first one done with with women and the second one done with men. So they basically found both studies, and I think this is fascinating that both studies separately, six years apart, yes, very similar structure, but but totally different studies, totally different, you know, um participants. Um exactly the same number of men and women said that the man, you know, when when asked who was the most influential person in their decision for for abortion, because these the this study was conducted with all um uh with women uh who had had had abortions, um, or men who had been involved or with a woman who had an abortion. And when they were asked who was the most influential person in your decision for abortion, exactly 38% of men said me. I was the most influential person in in the in the decision. And 38% of the women said, well, the father of the child, the man, was the most influential. And I think that's just as a researcher, the likelihood of that happening is just, I mean, it's it's phenomenal. And it's um it, I think it's just it's fascinating. But then um the next two groups were were identical as well. Not the percentages, but the order was the same. So both men and women said that the man is the most influential, the uh a medical professional is the second most influential. Now the percentages on those were were slightly different. Um uh 18% of men said the medical professional was the second most influential, and 26% of women said the uh medical professional was the most influential. And then we get to the third most influential, and that was um the the the mom, the the mother of the woman who was facing the unexpected pregnancy. So the grandmother of the of the little one who tragically was aborted. Um and so she was the the third most influential, again, according to both of them, and again, exactly the same percentage, 14% of both the men and the women said that the the grandma um was the the most the most influential. So um, you know, again, I think it's amazing that um more than more than double um said in both men and women, well, with the men, it was almost more than double with the women said that the man was the most influential person in the you know for her in that decision. So obviously, you know, in some ways we've kind of been missing the boat for so long, having not focused on the man. You know, I mean, even at Vitay, we've we've done, you know, almost all of our studies have been just on the woman, on the decision-making process of abortion for the woman. Um, and um, you know, so I think that's that's one of the reasons why we we we said, you know what, this is gonna be important. I think at this time, you know, we're gonna look into that. Now, we actually um deciding to not just look into like the the man's role in this in in terms of uh you know pushing for abortion or um uh you know accepting abortion or whatever, but we also looked into um ideas like masculinity. What is masculinity to to a man in in 2025 was when we did the study. Um, you know, um providing and protecting. What does that look like to be a provider and a protector? Um and then um fatherhood, what is what is, you know, what is their emotional response towards the you know, towards the idea of fatherhood or being a father and that sort of thing. So it was it was a you know a little bit, it was definitely broader than just a focus on men and their responsibility or relationship to a woman, you know, choosing abortion. Um so you know, happy to get into any any of those those areas, but um, but the one what we I'll I'll I'll finish before I turn it over to Liam to kind of talk about some of the findings. So I think that's probably the most exciting thing um you know about the study, but but I think it is important to understand a little bit about the structure um of the um you know of the study. We we basically focused on um three different groups of men. And this came about from our previous studies um with women, especially the most recent study prior to this one was on um abortion healing. So women, women dealing with the after effects of abortion and how how they were how they healed. Um and so what we what we heard often in the from those interviews is that women, you know, and we didn't even ask the question per se, but it was just it would keep coming up, the fact that, well, the man had told her um that he would support her whatever she chose. You know, I'll support you whatever you choose. You know, when finding out about an unexpected pregnancy, he that's that was the most common response. And interestingly, you know, the women, a lot of them would talk about how that was not helpful. They did not like that. It pushed the like responsibility all back on them. Um, you know, obviously it wasn't a a super strong endorsement of his like willingness and excitement to to be a father, to help, you know, to help out. And it was kind of like, oh, whatever, you know, and so we we we found that interesting and and you know, figured that that would be something that you know we would we would want to explore as, okay, well, why do men say that so often? Why is that the kind of the the most common response in that situation? And so we really did look for um and and not just look for, but we through our criteria of setting up this the structure of the uh the study, we we required that we that one third of the men, um, and again, that's just you know, we're able to do that as as we um find the men um for the study, and we, you know, do um uh you know phone interviews and to to determine who will be, you know, who will call in. Um to we did it, we did it in um five different cities. So we have we know we have uh interview locations in those five cities, and um, you know, we're able to use like kind of a research um, you know, list of people willing to be involved in a research study. And um, so then we just, you know, kind of, you know, we we actually can uh actually contract with a company that um does that the phone interview to determine, you know, we give them the criteria, and then they go through and find people that match our criteria. So um, you know, we were looking for one third of the men to have literally said have so they had to have faced an unexpected pregnancy, and they had to have said something like that. I'll support you whatever you decide. It, you know, um, you know, what it's it's your decision, I'll I'll I'll do whatever you want, you know, something like that. Um so that was a third of our uh respondents. And then um another third were um men who had also faced an unexpected pregnancy, but had chosen a much stronger response. Now, interestingly, it could have been I will um I I would I want you to have this child. I want this child. I'm excited about this child, you know. We're you know, and and he pushed for you know her to carry to term you know, in in some way, shape, or form. And then on the other hand, the same group we allowed for men who pushed for abortion. So they they they whatever they said, whatever they did, they made it clear that they wanted her to have an abortion. So we actually included them in the same group, which is kind of interesting. But the idea was to contrast that with the first group who was who had said, I'll support you whatever you choose. Well, the second group took a much stronger uh response approach, and it could have been from either end of the spectrum. And then the third group that we interviewed, so one third of the respondents were in each of these groups, um, was uh were men who had not faced an unexpected pregnancy themselves, like in terms of their significant other. So now that that but they but they also did have to have some sort of um experience related to um this issue so that they could they could speak um you know uh basically so that we could go into their mind's eye with the visualization questions that we have in this type of research, so that they would actually be able to have some sort of personal response, personal experience, not necessarily with abortion or unexpected pregnancy, but just with, you know, um potentially it could have been a scare, um, potentially, you know, it could have been like a um, you know, a relative that dealt with this. Um but we but we kind of wanted to have it's not really a control group, but it's another it's the third group that we wanted to um even just see their responses and you know how those might be different than, and actually I should I should not say how they might be different with this right brain research. We're always looking for commonalities and similarities between um all of the groups. So we're actually looking for um kind of like what all three of them from these three different perspectives um are how they're responding, um, in in in what ways they're responding similarly so that we can message better to them and help pregnancy centers basically message better to them and that sort of thing, you know, uh uh commonalities, you know, something that we can we could use as almost like a universal message to to all three groups. So um, yeah, so I mean that's basically kind of the the structure of of the interviews. Um like I said, we did uh five different cities. We were in St. Louis, uh Denver, Dallas, uh Phoenix, and Orlando. Um so um, you know, very very much a mix of um, and again, we you know, we purposely look for, you know, a mix of in terms of race um that would match kind of like the US, the United, you know, basically the US demographic in terms of race and age. Um we did look for make sure that we were pretty even with um you know men who had had um who had families or who were married, unmarried. Um, you know, we we tracked every you know almost all of their demographics, but we didn't necessarily um you know require a certain number. Um, you know, we we we knew what what religion each of the the men you know uh professed, um, you know, again, age, um, job, salary, you know, you know, every everything like that. So um, yeah, it was uh a fascinating experience. And that's kind of the um we had we had 10 main questions that we were kind of looking at, and then um probably about six or seven different visualizations. And so in this kind of research, we we use visualization to have them go into their mind's eye, and they're basically reliving experiences related to the the questions that we want answered. And so we're we're like kind of removing that's why it's called right brain research. We're looking for like the emotional responses to these questions. Um, again, because when we when we message to them, a lot of times, you know, we're looking at like, okay, the message, the their decision making when they're you know thinking about making a decision towards abortion or or or not, or or anything really, it it all comes down to the right side of the brain, the emotional side of the brain. Um and so that's why we we do it like that. So we use visualization, relaxation, and repetition to kind of remove the filter that they have. And so we're really like kind of peeling back the layers so that we don't just get like, you know, what they think we want to hear or like a politically correct, you know, answer. Um we're really getting to deep into like their emotional experiences in these uh situations. Um a little bit about right way research if um if you if you're not familiar with it, but um but yeah, that's the kind of the background. And uh I can unless you have questions about the looking on the structure, um, you know, I we can let Liam you know start in on some of the findings.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Yeah, let's yeah, Liam, go ahead and share some of the findings. We can always come back and talk more about the structure down the road, perhaps, if we have that if we circle back.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah, for sure. Um yeah, so there we actually found a whole lot of stuff related to unexpected pregnancy, men's perception of abortion, men's perception of their own participation in the decision, um, how men view their own role as a man and how that's related to the situation, how men perceive fatherhood. So there is a lot of stuff we can talk about, and so we can um bounce between anything you find interesting. But uh one of the most so one of the first questions, and sorry, my dog is my dog is uh want some attention. Um yeah, we so among the men that did have a pregnancy experience, we asked them um to recount like what that emotional experience was like, and one of the questions we asked was when you first found out that she was pregnant, bring me back to that moment. How did that make you feel? Um, I'm kind of paraphrasing it, but the idea was we wanted to understand what their emotional response was to the situation, and we found pretty commonly that men either responded in fear with fear shock or excitement and happiness. And so, kind of the emotions of anxiety and then the emotions um that were more positive towards the pregnancy. And so then a good question is well, what are those emotions like attached to? And so we as part of the research analysis process, we were kind of looking exactly um at what the stories were about how when they're describing their emotional experiences, like what what are their fears, what are their hopes, what are they excited about in being a father, what are they worried about and becoming a father? Um and we realized pretty quickly that the unexpected pregnancy forces um the man to evaluate his perceptions of multiple things. So all at once, in this moment when he's pregnant and as he's working, um where's when his girlfriend's pregnant and as he's working through it, um, he is evaluating his perception of the relationship with the woman. He's um evaluating his own perception of whether or not he's ready to have a child, and he's also evaluating whether he even desires to have a child in the first place. And as you can imagine, all three of those things are not separate, they're very intertwined with each other. Um, and so when we talk about readiness, I think the thing a lot of people immediately think of is finances and the material reality that they're living in. And a lot of the men did bring that up. A lot of them worried that based on the life stage I'm at, or based um based on how old I was in that moment, I didn't feel like I could adequately provide for a child. And so they were much more insecure about um the emerging identity of fatherhood, and they didn't know whether they could embrace it, and they a lot of them didn't feel like they could, and so they saw abortion as as a result, either an option that they wanted or an option that they were okay with. And when it came to the conversation dynamic that went on, that most definitely influenced it. So, like a lot of those men um would tell the woman, hey, I'll just support you no matter what you choose. Um whatever, whatever you say, that's good with me. And a a lot of a lot of those men, some of those men were saying that out of this insecurity that I actually don't think I could do this, and so um if the outcome is abortion, like I'd be fine with that. Um another big another one was the relationship with the woman, and this is what I find personally interesting, and I something I think the pro life movement should spend um perhaps more time considering in terms of our messaging, but the relationship health between the man and the woman is very si is a very significant influence on his desire not just to be a father. Um, but to be a father with um and parent that child with the woman. So we saw that his perception and excitement towards the baby was very much influenced by the relationship quality with the woman. So for men who told us, like, I'm really excited to be, I was really excited to be a father um with this woman. Like I saw her as very maternal. She was the exact woman that I envisioned being the mother to my children. Um, she was a person of integrity, she like had her life relatively together. We were she was mature, like whatever it might be. They had confidence in her at that moment, and they also envisioned a long-term future with her. And so the child almost at that point became an extension of the long his this long-term commitment that he already decided he wanted to make. Even if the timing was off and he maybe not want didn't want the child right now, he was confident that the relationship would be something that would last and that that building a family would be something he wanted without woman. So among a few of the men, we heard the word legacy a lot, of building a legacy, of like, I'm gonna have a child to like build this family that I want, that I dream of, that I envision. Um, and we can definitely talk more about how men perceive um fatherhood. Like we found like a spoiler, like the majority of the men found saw fatherhood as something that was an ideal, something that was good, it was very positive. And we can talk about um we can definitely talk more about that. Um but definitely on the other on the flip side of the equation, among the men that were in low trust relationships who um there was a very low level of commitment, they didn't see the relationship lasting very long, or they had been dating for a few weeks, or the relationship was a hookup, it was very casual. We saw that when their partner came to them and said, Hey, I'm pregnant, they either they responded either wanting an abortion or they were very hands-off in how they dealt with the conversation. And a a lot of those same men were saying things like, Yeah, like whatever you whatever you want to do, like I'll support you. Even some of the men who did have fatherhood as like a very high ideal in their mind, they were like, Well, because of this situation, because it's so casual and non-committal, I don't feel like I have a place or authority in a relationship to tell her what to do, because this is gonna affect her for the rest of her life. So the the lack of trust and the lack of commitment is also related to his perceived level of commitment, which is which is um, or his perceived level of participation, what he feels like he's able to invest into the decision to keep the pregnancy or not. Um which which is super interesting, it has like all sorts of implications. Um and we just saw among those men there was not really a high emphasis on excitement about being a father or um really any language that would say like, oh, we really like that's a child, like that's something I want to value and bring into the world. Um and that that was definitely more so the case. There were of course like a few exceptions. Um, and so we're not saying that's like a hard and fast observation as true of like every single low commitment relationship, because there are certainly men that we saw who rose up above civil relationship problems and were like, okay, no, I'm gonna be a child. I mean, I want the child because this is the next step for me to become a man or to be mature. Um, we did see some of that, but for the most part, the we really saw a contrast between high and low levels of trust and commitment and how that affected the pregnancy outcomes and also the man's desire to have a child. Um so those are those are some of the significant findings related um to the decision and how the man kind of enters into like the emotional dynamics that are going on when he faces that situation. Um and his sense of readiness and the relationship also affect how the conversation goes, as you can probably imagine. Like they're gonna be talking about are we mature enough for this? Is our relationship in a good place? Do I see myself with you in the future? Um, are we financially ready to have a baby like have a baby, to have a family? All those things are being talked about when that moment happens, and the man and the woman are both being forced with those questions. And and sometimes, you know, we actually saw one story too where it doesn't always lead to abortion, like low levels of commitment. Um, like we saw m one one guy was like, Yeah, I'll support you no matter what you choose, and she ended up choosing life like she wanted to have a baby. And and her family was very positive and helping her um move in that direction. But he was kind of kind of taking a step back and uh that definitely affected affected the situation too. So there are of course exceptions to these things. Um but that that's a lot, and I'll let Jeff add to that um or allow you ask any follow-up questions if you feel like that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

It sounds like interesting. So in general, when someone says I'll support you in whatever you would choose, did that typically lean towards promoting abortion to the to you know to the to the women making, you know, essentially putting it in the women's hands?

SPEAKER_03 27:43

Yeah, I I think it's um, you know, it's it that's a really good question because there's probably three different ways to to look at it. There's certainly there certainly was a group of men, and these are men that are probably a little bit more, I don't know, um sly about it, or they're a little bit more, they're a little more perceptive in realizing that if I say this, it it's gonna put the pressure on her, and and it probably will, it it might encourage her more towards abortion. And I'm I'm okay with that. Like so and in some ways, almost they say it because they know that it's not really supportive, that it's not authentically supportive. But that is a fairly small group. The much bigger group were ones that truly believed that by saying, I'll support you whatever you choose, that they were doing something that was authentically supportive. They they wanted to support her and they thought that's what was the best thing to say. You know, our our um kind of analysis of that uh or or maybe uh our you know, jumping off point from that, like that's the actual data. So the majority of them would say say that and believe that they they were generally surprised then if we did a follow-up question that said, you know, from our interview, interviews with women, a lot of them say that they don't they don't appreciate that. And and there were a lot of men that were like, oh, uh really, you know, I and and so I now some of them were kind of like, well, okay, I guess I can see why, you know, they probably don't feel, you know, like authentic, you know, they probably want to hear a stronger, you know, like positive uh message, if you know, that sort of thing. But um, I think it's because they've been conditioned, you know, they've been conditioned by our culture. And um, and and I don't know if this is a purposeful thing from the abortion industry or not, but what is purposeful on their end is certainly an effort to separate the man and the woman from like communicating about this and any sort of possibility of one or the other sharing that there actually is some positive uh positive emotional response to this unexpected pregnancy. Because, you know, it goes back to the whole crazy thing that you know that uh Abby Johnson has mentioned before that where you know some planned parenthood uh facilities will actually crank up the heat in the waiting room so that the man is very uncomfortable and will not stay in the waiting room with the woman, you know, at the risk of them having a last-minute conversation of like, hey, are you sure you want to do this? No, no, let's let's get out of here. And they they want that man to leave, to go to the car, to be outside, to not be, you know, in the in the waiting room. Um, you know, and and the idea, I think, from the other side, from the pro-abortion side, is not just in that kind of unique weird situation, but in all situations to try to remove or try to disconnect the man and the woman to separate the two from really having a good communication about this, because we as one example, and I'll I'll I'll turn it over to Liam for his thoughts, but um one example is that there were multiple times where a man, you know, Liam mentioned at the beginning that the most common reactions, responses were um uh fear and shock about this emotional or about sorry, about this uh unexpected pregnancy, which is similar to what we've seen with women as well. Fear and shock, it makes sense. Um, but the surprise was that there was actually, you know, a number of them that also experienced excitement and even happiness about, and this is again about an unexpected pregnancy. This is not something they were planning, you know, everything. So um, and and yet uh a number of them then did did not say, like they still gave the gave the response, I'll support you whatever you choose, whatever you choose. So the woman didn't know that he was experiencing happiness or excitement, and she then feels more pressure to abort because he's saying, Well, whatever you want. And she's like, Well, obviously, he's not very excited about this, even though he was. And so there's like this miscommunication, and in that the likelihood of abortion goes up. Um, and so, you know, that's kind of alludes, goes back to what Liam was saying about the importance of the of the relationship and being able to talk, you know, about their their true, you know, feelings in this situation. But the man has been so conditioned in our culture um that it's not that he doesn't want to come across as like being a toxic, you know, toxic masculinity kind of thing, where he he he doesn't even feel like he has the right to say, um, at least at first, but actually when we got dug down deeper, it he almost all of the men said, well, the ideal would be that the man and the woman talk together and make this decision together. But on the surface, right at the beginning, he's constantly saying, Well, it's her decision, she's the one that has to carry to term, um, or sorry, she's the one that has to carry this child for nine months. It's her body, she has to go through all of that. So it's really her decision. But then again, like once we peel back, you know, those layers and we get deeper and going deeper into his mind's eye, he's actually saying, well, he he recognizes that he does have some influence here, going back to that care net study, and that um the ideal is that they would talk about it and make a decision together. But on the surface, he's been conditioned to say, I'll support you whatever you choose, because again, I think that the other side, you know, knows that that's actually not supportive. Um, and and they and he but he thinks it is. He's he's been conditioned to believe that it is.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Um Jeff, can you can you speak to the to the opposition's messaging of her body, her choice, and how that tells men to be silent or to break that communication.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

Yeah, I I think that's exactly right, Jacob. That that that that is one of the ways that they condition men to to have that common response that is in that is in the end not really authentically supportive. You know, even though they think it is supportive, that my body, my choice, you know, it's still it's still used, you know, almost like a mantra by a lot of women that we we've interviewed in our studies, you know, choice, choice, choice, choice. It's just it's always there, even though, you know, Planned Parenthood kind of made a you know, they made a specific move away from choice when they moved towards healthcare and like, you know, care no matter what, healthcare, you know, like all the, you know, all these aspects. So, you know, which was kind of interesting. That's one of the things that we explored with that 2015 study. But I think you're right that that for men, a lot of men, it's almost like they take that to heart and they put the, it's almost like they change it and they say, not my body, therefore, not my choice, you know. And so it's because it is your body, you know, and like I said, all of the things that come with pregnancy then almost has to be like where he's like, well, and because of that, I really have no no say, or I should, I don't have a final say, or anything like that. But again, when you when you dig deep, it's they don't all they don't really believe that. They believe that there actually should be uh you know a conversation, or you know, and and that's I think the interesting thing about this kind of research is that on the surface, they'll tell you that they really shouldn't have a a say. My body, my choice says that they shouldn't have a say. Um they they've kind of you know drunk the Kool-Aid from the other side, you know, they've been conditioned, that sort of thing. But when you when you really get deep down into it, most of the men will say, well, the ideal would be that we we make this decision together. Um, but I do think you're right that my body, my choice is a big factor in um, you know, it's or it's the same thing like um no uterus, no opinion. You know, it's these slogans from the other side that have been very effective, unfortunately. Have they been very effective in conditioning men to step out of this decision, to step away from their responsibility. Now, the cool thing was that we found in the study is that they actually do believe they they have a responsibility, like once they find out about an unexpected pregnancy, to, in their words, step up. You know, now that's not true, you know, with all men, um, but it is, I think it was a surprise that we saw from so many that um they do want to take they do want to take responsibility for you know for for this you know situation for this unexpected pregnancy. Go ahead, Lane.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Yeah, yeah, and and just to add to that, they will say they want to be responsible when facing an unexpected pregnancy, but I think what um what is actually packaged in there is being responsible does not always look like choosing to have the baby. Being responsible could, in his mind, sometimes is um helping her have an abortion or walking her through that. Um there were there were uh a number of men who described abortion as the responsible choice to make, given like their lack of maturity, lack of financial status, um, lack of readiness, um, emotional, uh mental, whatever it might be. Um and then but then on the other side we saw a lot of men ha had a very high view of themselves um and responsibility to them meant like getting getting the job that's higher paying or taking on extra work or um supporting her emotionally or walking her through like her ultrasound appointments or like whatever it might be. And so um I think when we think of this as a cultural issue, it can be really easy to just um lay all the blame at the feet of men who are either cold-hearted or indifferent and kind of paint this picture where if men could if we could just yell at them a little louder um and get them to step up, then that's what we need to do. Um, but the reality is like men when they face this situation, they know that they have to do something. They know that there's a choice that has to be made, and they want to make the most responsible choice for themselves and for her. The question is, what does that look like? And our culture, I mean, we've we've been talking about it, our culture makes it seem like the easy way out, the most responsible way out, is actually um choosing not to provide for a child, choosing not to um organize your life around children, um, choosing to um forgo relationships that require more into like um interdependence between man and woman, between man and family, man and um church, society, whatever it might be. The idea of like asking for help and needing help from people and relying on other people is one of the the cultural narratives that we just believe about ourselves as people. Like we believe that um to be an independent, like fully authentic person means that our real we can't be dependent on anybody. We have to be fully autonomous. And men believe that just as much as women do. So, like from a woman's perspective, that um the the emphasis on autonomy is any like having a child would be a burden on my life. It would diminish my my career, it would diminish um just the dreams that I have for myself. Um and we see that a lot with our previous research, but for men that um that definitely can look very differently. Um and I think part of addressing this issue means to help help men have a fuller picture of what responsibility looks like and how that's related to their identity as a man. Like, what does it mean to be a provider? What does it look like to be a protector? What does it mean to handle these ri situations, not just in a way that feels safe, but in a way that is life-affirming, in a way that does embrace um the goodness of new life, but also the goodness of fatherhood and the gift that that is. And maybe we can transition there too, Jeff, just in talking about how some of the men um either received fellowhood or um kind of reacted to it. Because we definitely we saw a lot of really interesting things there, and I think that data pr offers a really positive way forward in terms of how we can message and um just help men who are facing these situations. So um I know Jeff, you have a lot to say about that, so I'll turn it over to you.

SPEAKER_03 41:11

Yeah, it's it's it's one of our other major findings. Um, just and I think it is a little bit of a surprise. So I if you're listening to this, you know, you know, and you're a pregnancy center director or staff or something like that, then you might think, well, a lot of this stuff we know, you know, like we, you know, a lot of a lot of what you're telling us, Jeff and Liam, yeah, are things that we see every single day. They're not, you know, necessarily surprising or that sort of thing. You know, so um and and and and that's true, you know, there's there's a lot about this study and and and all of our research that will um uh the original kind of founder of right brain research, Dr. Charles Kinney, would always say there's three things that that will come about from from a right brain study. Um, one is you know, findings that you already know, and and and that, and that's to be expected because you know, it just you know, you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna back up a lot of the things you already know. Then you're gonna find tacit knowledge. So this is stuff that like it might not, it might be like kind of anecdotal or I assume this to be true, but I don't I don't know for sure. And it kind of backs that up. And then the third thing, and this is you know, by far the smallest piece that you'll find in these studies is surprises. So these are like kind of the nuggets that are real like gems and surprises that um, and now and they could be negative surprises, they could be things that we don't really want to hear, but we are finding out um, because that's something else that you like we have to understand with with these studies is that we're interviewing kind of the like by definition the the movable middle of the uh of of the you know pro-life issue. So these are not pro-life people or or pro strongly pro-abortion people. These are people that have met a criteria to to fall into the middle. And, you know, so a lot of times what they'll say is is not necessarily like factually correct, but we're not looking for facts. We're looking for the emotional responses towards like, you know, and their their their their um their personal um you know lived situations with regard to these um these different issues, so that we can kind of get a start to get a picture. It's almost like doing like 50 different case studies, putting them all together and looking at the similarities between them, so that then that gives us like a broader kind of meta-analysis of uh of a universal response to you know these different um topics. And so, you know, when we're talking about um, you know, like some of these things, you know, it's like it may not be what we want to hear. And and a lot of what we learn are things that we already know. But like our president Brandy says sometimes, like, but that's the problem. Like, so so yeah, we found out that the the man, you know, is is definitely, you know, taking a uh not my body, not my choice kind of. of thing, hands off, you know, that sort of thing. Like, well, we kind of already knew that. Well, but the problem is we're not really diving into it. And hopefully this research can be an opportunity to to then you know explore that more. Like, well, why aren't we um you know engaging men on this issue? Um, because yeah, it's something that we basically already knew. We've we we we we found we found that that is true through an uh you know a um you know very rigorous research you know approach. Um it but but the problem is we're you know we're not really addressing it. And so I think that's you know Brandy you know has some good good points there. The other thing is there are a few surprises um that are either positive or negative for us to to to contemplate as as pro-life activists. And one of them is related to fatherhood. And this is something that was it's it's one of those that is really a universal you know finding it's it's like you know some of the things we find are well there's there might be a small group that that that doesn't you know respond this way or that in most of the findings that's true. But for this one, I don't know that we found any there might have been one there was one man that I that really jumps out at me in Denver that was just so self-absorbed that I don't know that he would ever like have even thought about the beauty of fatherhood or like giving giving himself you know up for his family like Liam was talking about you know the like you know not being this independent autonomous person. It's hard to imagine this guy, you know, but but anyway besides that one guy I mean everybody else that I can think of um even ones who had chosen abortion and said you know like well it was the right thing to do I did you know blah blah blah you know and and and and you know talking about the the necessity of abortion or whatever to a man besides that one that I can think of and even him I I don't I don't remember specifically what he said about fatherhood. But otherwise all of them talked about the great good that fatherhood is um and so even if they said well you know um you know I we aborted this child when you know I was 18 years old and now I'm you know 45 years old I there's one man specifically that I can think of in that almost exact situation. And he really regretted the fact that he might have aborted the only opportunity for him to experience the good of fatherhood in his life because he had met like I think he said like three women. I've had three women that um you know were like the love of my life and I can see you know having children with them and um it didn't work out and um you know but I still like I still desperately want to be a father and um and I now at this point in my life think that it may not happen. And I look back and I think that the time the the the one time that I was a father I aborted that that child or I I pushed for the the abortion. And so even men who have made that decision and push for abortion see the goodness of fatherhood and the beauty of fatherhood. And we had so many men and this reflects just the sta the state of our culture so many men that did not grow up with fathers that wanted to basically um to to to change that cycle so that it you know but unfortunately it doesn't necessarily extend so like they desperately want to be good fathers and be involved and be present to their their kids unlike what they had unfortunately that doesn't necessarily always extend to the unborn child. So they they you know we ask that question a lot and it's like okay they're they're talking about what what and some of the words that they use to describe fatherhood was you were just beautiful. I mean just powerful I mean things like it changes changes your life in a good way forever you know it's like Liam mentioned the legacy that is offered by that um it makes everything uh in life better um you know it uh you know that just some really beautiful things um and so it's a really universal good fatherhood is so it's something like when we message that it's that that messaging is not going to turn off you know in any man. So you know we we can be safe as like a pregnancy center in really pushing like the idea of fatherhood and the goodness of fatherhood, the beauty of fatherhood and and how do we do that with a man who doesn't feel like he's ready for that like he wants that eventually but not right now. Well that's something that we need to you know explore more from a pregnancy uh center um approach but um yeah it's it's something that I love talking about as a as a dad myself like Liam's you know talking about how he gets really excited about the relationship finding this is a finding that I get uh really excited about because I think it is a surprise it's a surprise. I I I did not anticipate that so many men who were kind of in the movable middle that aren't pro-life really that had chosen abortion in the past would still like talk about the goodness of father. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

So I guess I'll just I'll go ahead I'll just add quickly to that yeah it was they talked about the goodness of fatherhood but also the need for it too like the ne the need for a child to have a father. So a lot of them in describing like what a good father was weren't really a few of them weren't even really able to describe it. Like their descriptions were like I don't really know about that. That doesn't really sound very like um responsible to me um or exactly like a good picture of what fatherhood looks like but they still recognize the need for there to be a father. Even if they couldn't exactly describe like what that looked like and so you see it from a positive angle like oh I had a father and I want to be that but and also I didn't experience that and I want to reverse the cycle. And I might not necessarily know what it's like but I do know that not growing up without a father was a loss for me and that's something I don't want my future children to to experience.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

So so Jeff and Liam um for those who are listening and would like to read more about this study, where can they find it? And then if they have questions how could they ask those questions um you know from someone on your team or you Liam do you want to take that?

SPEAKER_02 50:35

Yeah for sure so all of our research findings are on our website btresearchinstitute.org so you can go there or if you want to look at the men's study in particular you can go to a few goodmen study dot com. I'm just gonna double check if that's the few goodmen study dot com. Um so everything is housed there we have um different levels different summaries like a higher review summary um more in depth summary we have a bunch of quotes from the respondents the people we interviewed um that really gives you a good idea of like what exactly they're saying in their own words and how it's related to the findings of the study. And you can start to piece things together for yourself as you just go through that. It's a very sensitive database. That's something we were able to do pretty recently um that I'm excited about that I know just excited about too um and then you can also reach out to us on our website um if you want to call email about it um have one of us come talk to your clinic or um whatever event it might be we love to talk about this um especially how it it's relating uh related to messaging and how we can impact the culture with this knowledge. That's something that we're very passionate about too so um yeah I don't know if that covers everything that's great.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Yeah thank you guys so much for sharing and and um yeah this is it's exciting um it's exciting to see you know discussion and talk about the men's program and and like you said some things we know but at the same time it really helps to have that deeper research um dive into the cracks into the roots of some of the things that we we experience and know but but we don't know the details or the the where research can discover things that are below the surface. So uh yeah any final thoughts or notes that you'd like to share before we wrap things up?

SPEAKER_03 52:42

Um you know besides just you know speaking to pregnancy center uh leaders staff that sort of thing um you know Liam mentioned that we're we're happy to answer questions or to come you know give talks or anything like that. I'll I'll I'll I'll uh go back to the VTVault.org uh website as well because that's designed specifically for pregnancy centers and it does have links to our um our men study research but I would just encourage um you all uh that if you don't have uh a men's program uh to to start one um and you know we're happy to to help with that I know um uh men for life uh um uh Sean Corcoran leads that organization and they're uh putting together a um a really good solid um men's program that's not just you know men here's how to change a diaper you know it's it's it's it's much much deeper than that in terms of like understanding the importance it is to take on that role of provider and protector and um you know to to kind of embrace the the um you know the like an ideal masculine role model of of being a father or you know um a a good a good mate a good husband uh or um you know or if anyway so um or if you already have a a men's program um to just yeah um you know uh feel free to to reach out and we'd love to help you know make it more robust um there's some uh we've done some interesting had some interesting conversations with some of the men's um program developers at Carnet and Heartbeat as well um but um some of this research can kind of put some like you said Jacob kind of put some structure around what you might already be doing so um we just encourage because it's just so important I think it's gonna be a game changer going forward if we can continue this momentum of talking about men and and and and demonstrating to men themselves that they really do have this influence and and a lot of them know it already as from that study, but to help them um you know be confident and you know be compassionate and be competent as they talk about because a lot of times they just don't know what to say. They don't know what to say to the woman in in in that situation or they don't know you know they don't want to come across as um you know being um you know forcing her to do something and you know that they want to be compassionate but they just don't know how to do it. And so um you know we've got some information about about that. Again, Men for Life has some good stuff that's coming out. I think it won't be fully out until January but um but but even just understanding this research at a at a good level is going to provide a really good foundation. So um you know in terms of you know when you talk to women um that are coming into your center um make sure that they're they it's assumed that they will bring the man you know just like make it make it an automatic assumption don't you know say well if he's around you know just say like and of course you'll be bringing them you know you're you're bringing the baby's father in and you know or how well you probably shouldn't say it quite like that but however you're however you want to you know do but you know um but basically making an expectation that they'll both be there so that the you know that counseling can happen with him too because um one of the things that we saw is that men um overwhelmingly they felt like that abortion was not okay after there was a heartbeat for the child they had no clue that the heart starts beating at at 14 days um you know can start beating at 14 days now some of them might have been referring to like when when the heartbeat can be detected which would be another you know few weeks after that but the fact is men being visual and you know that sort of thing like hearing that heartbeat seeing that child on the ultrasound there like there's been stud there's well it's more anecdotal evidence from some pregnancy centers that we've talked to around the country that say men respond at even higher rates than women do when seeing their child on an ultrasound to to making a decision for life. Because again they're visual and they're seeing that image and they're like that's my child that's my you know and so um anyway getting them in the center and being able to have a chance to talk with them, counsel them, um, you know, again like man on, you know, man to man, you know, having a man a man's counselor or mentor there is really powerful and I think it will be a game changer the more pregnancy centers can can can bring uh men's programs in, develop men's programs and make sure that you know and help help them as Liam said help the man and the woman have those conversations develop that relationship further um so that would be kind of where I would I would leave it. But yeah I really appreciate um the opportunity to kind of talk about some of this stuff Jacob.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

Yeah it's amazing to see you know to hear the most influential voices um in that young woman's world such as the boyfriend or you know the father of the child, the the medical professionals, um the mom her mom or the grandma of the child, and just to think of the sphere of influence when it comes to you know impacting her decision um based on support and care and advice. And so it's yeah essentially it's it just shows the impact that reaching the culture has uh and certain people in someone's life have a major impact on what they think they can do or will do. Yeah that's so true. Any final words Liam before we wrap things up on your side I think Jeff did a good job.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

Everything awesome thank you well Jeff would you uh as we close this out will you uh wrap this up with a prayer and with expectation that those who are listening will join in yeah thank you Jacob I appreciate it dear Lord thank you for bringing us together to have this conversation um you know we know that this uh issue of of abortion um is uh uh something just you know so uh that hurts your heart so much and that um you know we know it's it's it's the greatest human rights issue of all time and you know we thank you for the opportunity to to fight um in this uh arena um we know you've placed us all here who are on this call or on this um you know video and this uh podcast and listening or talking um and we ask for strength to keep um to keep going and to really uh do everything with you in you and through you um but you know we we we we engage in this with both our head uh and our heart so with this research uh you know we we we engage with the head but um we always uh continue to engage with our heart which should you know we offer to you and we and we we want to keep that close to uh to your sacred heart um as well Jesus so we ask this um all in your holy name and uh please bless all those who are listening and watching as well amen today through the power of the train through faith in the dream trust in the world i spin i sweet three