SPEAKER_00 4:28

Welcome to the ProLife Team podcast. I'm here with Pam and Cheney, and today we're going to get to talk about the Women's Care Kit. So, Pam and Chaney, would you guys take turns and just give us some background, brief, brief background of who you are and you know your backstory, and then we'll dive into the women's care kit.

SPEAKER_05 4:46

Sure. Cheney, do you want to start or do you want me to jump out here and go ahead, Pam? All right. How do you summarize the background of Pam Stenzel? There we go. Well, Chaney was kind of ahead of me in the picture, but uh I am um the d uh the executive producer for Bright Course, and I'm working with Bright Course and with Heritage House, and so that's kind of how I got pulled in. Well, and I'm actually uh also on the board for Infinite Worth, which is the 24-7 nurse chat. So about two years ago, Rachel Owen at the time, who was CEO then um kind of reached out to me and said, Hey, there's this idea floating out there between some of the centers and uh and Cheney. She mentioned Cheney about uh developing this this uh care kit, this this way to reach the very abortion-determined moms. And I I will be honest with you, I was initially skeptical, had a lot of the same reservations that I hear from others going, I in no way want to participate or even give the appearance that we are participating or aiding in abortion. And so we spent literal months meeting together, meeting with ethicists, meeting with I was meeting uh fairly regularly with Dr. Bowles, who is the medical director for abortion pill reversal out of Heartbeat. He's a hospitalist at OBGYN, he works in the emergency room at St. Joseph Women's Hospital in Tampa. So he's my neighbor. So uh I have a uh little bit better access to be able to just, you know, text him and go, hey, can we meet and talk? Um really wanting advice uh for this process. And so that's kind of been my involvement. Um I'll let uh Cheney uh share her involvement, introduce herself, and then we'll dive into uh all of the questions and uh concerns about about this.

SPEAKER_04 6:49

So I first heard about this concept way back when I worked for her plan, her pregnancy and life assistance network. And I thought it was really compelling to help women actually understand the implications of the decision. I wasn't convinced that they were really having informed consent before undergoing chemical abortion. And so I thought it was interesting, but um never heard many updates on it until I started working for Heaven's Gane Ministries. Now, Heaven's Gain Ministries has a miscarriage kit that helped inspire the original conversations. And around the same time that Rachel was bringing this back up again, wanting to work to adapt the miscarriage kit for the chemical abortion context, I found out that Jessica from Southwest Coalition for a life in Texas was doing something in El Paso and across the border in New Mexico very similar to the chemical abortion kit. And so I just decided, you know, we all really need to be talking to each other. So that's kind of this group that Pam was alluding to that met behind the scenes, brought in some stakeholders, brought in some expertise in the legal and medical and ethical realms to adapt the miscarriage kit. And there's a lot of uh miscommunication and misunderstanding because the miscarriage kit is not the care kit, and it's also not what others in the movement are calling a catch kit, which is an idea for legislation that would mandate that the abortion industry provide some kind of collection kit situation in order to minimize environmental impacts of flushing babies and also having drugs in women's system. And does that come out in the urine? Does that come out in the blood? You know, the science seems to me a little unsettled, but that's been a proposed concept. And so as all of these were happening at the same time, as centers started talking about catch kits and miscarriage kits and care kits, I think there was a lot of confusion, and there are really three different things. Catch kits is a is a legislative proposal about the abortion industry giving out kits. Care kits are a tool that pregnancy centers use for the most abortion-determined or peri-abortive women, and we'll talk about what that means. And then miscarriage kits are for the circumstance of miscarriage, which obviously has totally different medical and legal implications when the child's already deceased. So I just wanted to be really clear from the onset that those are three different kids.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Awesome. Let's let's start by defining periabortion. What does peri-abortion uh mean?

SPEAKER_04 9:29

This is a fascinating term that I learned about from Rachel. And essentially it means that a woman is already in the middle of an abortion, per-abortive. Meaning she's either ordered those pills, they're coming to her mailbox soon, or she has them in her hand, or maybe she's even stocking up the abortion industry saying, you know, have some misperiod pills on hand just in case. Give them to your friends in the sorority house. That's very scary. So she has them in her possession, or she's already taken the first pill. And so those are per-abortive women. That is a step up from our abortion determined woman that's telling us at the pregnancy center, I want to have an abortion, this is what I'm doing. This is like, I've already started doing it. And that's why it's a new level. And so the care kit is not designed for a woman vulnerable or questioning or even on the lower side of minded, because we already have tools in our toolkit for that. This is when you've run out of tools, Jacob. And it's a desperate last attempt, a nuclear option, if you will, to try to help the woman who either won't come into your pregnancy center to begin with, so she's not even hearing about what you normally tell her about chemical abortion. Or maybe she's come into your center and she didn't respond to the ultrasound. She's got that blank stare, she's not connecting with her baby. You've run out of tools for her, and this is that last ditch tool in your tool belt, last ditch effort.

SPEAKER_05 11:09

Yeah, it's important to remember, Jacob, and I think there needs to be some context around even the reasoning for this. The abortion landscape in our country has changed dramatically. And and the the the the biggest change didn't come to post Dobbs necessarily, it really came during COVID. And during COVID, um, the abortion industry kind of used that crisis for their own purposes to kind of pilot this concept of of being able to provide abortion pills to women without having without seeing them in person. So telehealth. And and they did it under the guise during COVID of, oh, you know, it's COVID. These girls can't come into our clinics and get an ultrasound. We can't see them in person. We need to um, you know, we need to be able to provide abortion services without actually seeing the patient. And and and actually Jacob in in Arizona, one of the Planned Parenthood in Tucson was one of the first ones to kind of pilot this concept. And what they would do is they would have girls during during the COVID crisis, they would they would um have a little telehealth appointment, like you know, talk to her online, ask ask her a few questions. Then they would have her drive up to the Planned Parenthood in Tucson. She would drive up in her car, the Planned Parenthood worker would walk out in a hazmat suit, holding a paper bag, hand that to her through her door window with some instructions, and bring, of course, she would bring her um a payment, you know, the the device to take payment because this isn't free, you know, take her credit card and send her on her merry way. And and so th thus begun the whole the whole crisis. And and then um after kind of COVID resi, you know, kind of went away or they really couldn't use that as an excuse, they asked the FDA under Joe Biden to continue to allow them to distribute uh abortion pills without an in-person appointment. And and and now it's the Wild West. I mean it's every state, it doesn't matter. Like here, I'm in Florida. Here in Florida we have uh restrictions, a six-week ban with a ton of uh exceptions that basically you can drive a truck through. So but but in theory, you know, it's it's a a semi-six-week ban. And so it doesn't matter. Texas has a full abortion ban and has closed all of their uh freestanding abortion clinics, however, um the abortion pills are still flooding into Texas. And and so I I think when when people don't understand what's actually happening on the ground, that the reality is that women are ordering these pills, they're never seeing a doctor, they're being sent to their home, and and and they're doing it extremely cheaply. If you don't understand what's really happening, Jacob, then it's really hard to understand why this drastic very 11th hour tool is necessary. And I and I just want people to think in in my own home state of Florida, um, if you go to an abortion clinic, you go to a Planned Parenthood or a uh private abortion clinic of some kind to get the abortion pill, but you still are required to have an ultrasound. There is a 24-hour waiting period that that abortion clinic must abide by, and they have to uh they have to do the ultrasound to determine gestational age. And so it's a two it's two appointments in Florida in person. And the cost you know, you know, whether they get insurance or they get uh help to pay for it, the cost is still between five hundred and fifty and seven hundred dollars. So so but the reality is it won't matter if I'm eight weeks or ten weeks or twelve weeks or whatever weeks, if I just order those pills online and the cost is as low as five dollars. And and so if you're a if you're a young woman sitting in Florida and your choice is two appointments at a clinic uh and an ultrasound and that kind of a cost, or just having pills sent to my home with nobody knows and and I don't even have to tell anybody what I'm doing. I mean, you it it doesn't take rocket science to figure out what these girls are choosing to do. And so the reality is that no matter what the lies in your state, we're facing uh just a huge vast number of women who are obtaining these pills with absolutely no medical consult, no medical information, and there is absolutely zero way that they are actually uh providing informed consent. They don't know what they're doing, they don't know what to expect, they've been lied to by the pill provider. Most of them don't even know what pills they're actually taking. We have instances where women here in Florida ended up in the ER they were sent abortion pills in the mail with only English instructions and they didn't speak English. And so here they get this package and and a bunch of pills and they have no idea what they're even taking. And so it is it is literally outrageous what's happening. And and the the truth is we have to do something. You know, Jacob, I hope that we end this nightmare of of chemical abortion being mailed and that and that we close down every not only abortion clinic, but every pill provider, and this stops happening. But that's not the world we live in today. And we, those of us who are on the ground helping women every day, have to address what's actually happening, not what we wish would happen in the real world.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Wow. So I want to ask you another question, but before I do, I just want to just put uh Amazon Amazon will sell a pill for well, they let you pick the strength, 100 or 200 for Mesa Pristol, how many tablets per day, and then the number of days. So 450 pills is $203 with a prescription. Um just to give a yeah, like that's that's very cheap per pill. Like that's a stockpile if there ever was one.

SPEAKER_05 17:48

Providing the prescription, that's a question.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Well, an online prescription would be at various places to get online prescriptions.

SPEAKER_05 17:56

Yeah, well, we we had a a mother uh in Sarasota, Florida, who found in her 16-year-old daughter's bedroom, found four packs of 12 misopr misoprostol. So that's 48 pills because they came in packs of four, uh, sitting in her her daughter, her 16-year-old daughter's bedroom. And and we're like, is she dealing? What what in the world? I mean, how did this young girl get a hold of that much misoprostol? And by the way, it was only misoprostol. That's another thing that we're fighting because uh because uh the the abortion industry is poised and full-on ready to do misoprostol only uh chemical abortion and and just even ignore the first pill, which again is is very dangerous for women, much higher uh uh hemorrhage rates and and then subsequent infections from that because the baby is being delivered alive.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

So I want to ask the question of I want to ask a two-part question. So, like what is in the women's care kit? And then also I want you to walk us through each of you, if you can walk through your first reaction when seeing this kit. And I know that that might be you know, there's some variation, so that might be a little bit of a a layered uh question. But then I want you to walk through your hesitations and and for those who are not up to speed, or for those who are going through their hesitations, you can help with their learning curve by seeing how you walk through your hesitations. And I think that will um yeah, just help address people's concerns that are experiencing uh the anxiety and concern that shows up with something that's very innovative and outside of what we're used to and what we've seen.

SPEAKER_05 19:46

Yeah, Jacob, I'll start and then I I'm gonna let Cheney really address the back end of the care kit. Um but the front end of the care kit, the most important piece is actually the full booklet that comes with it. And we have a lot of centers that are actually they're not giving the care kit or the actual full kit to women at all, um, either ever, or unless they have after going through the entire booklet and checking all of the checklist, still are determined then to to take those abortion pills, then occasionally they will actually give the full kit. So the most important piece is the the brochure, the the information. It's both English and Spanish, both sides. And what the the it's not hand the girl the brochure and hope she reads it. So let me re-remind you as a therapist that we've got women who are in trauma brain, they're in crisis, and it is very, very difficult for them to digest any information. And so what we're wanting them to do is to come in and sit down with a nurse, sit down with a medical professional, and and and the medical professional that is trained to get her out of her trauma brain and get her into her frontal cortex and be able to actually digest and make a plan. And one of the things I love about nurses, they have been trained very specifically on how to help patients make a plan. In other words, this is a nursing skill to take someone who's experiencing trauma or crisis or fear, whether it's because they're gonna have a major surgery or they've just gotten a cancer diagnosis or whatever, and sit down with them and help them get out of that crisis mode and think logically through a plan of of what they're going to do going forward. And that's what this care kit brochure has been written to do. So if if you go through it from its beginning to end, um, and everyone can go to um the it's women's care kit at uh pro dot life at the Heritage House site, and you can actually see it. Um you it goes through. It tells them first of all what the abortion pill is so they understand the medication and what that medication is going to do. It it will show them what's in the care kit physically if they actually would to take it home, which is a toilet hat for them to measure blood and measure their blood loss. There's a strainer that fits into that um toilet hat that will allow them to catch that baby and the placenta and uh you know anything larger than the blood that would be strained through. And then it has some gloves for them. It has some saline solution that they can mix up. And so when they collect their baby, they can place the baby in the small little container that's that's included and use the saline solution to kind of help uh wash that baby and make the appearance a little bit better for them on that end. And and there's some pads, and there's also included in that brochure a blood loss chart. So those are kind of the physical elements uh of the kit itself. But the nurse then goes through this whole kit, and the whole time she's explaining all of the all of the contradictions, all of the implications, how much blood is too much, the fact that she could very well and will experience a tremendous amount of blood loss. This is not just a um uh a painful period or a heavy period. This is going to be uh some blood loss. It also gives her a very clear chart as to what are what these babies uh are going to look like based on gestational age. And so these are not aborted babies we've put in this brochure. These are these are babies that uh either were miscarried or uh are seen through a very special fetoscope that will actually show the an actual baby at six weeks LMP, at seven weeks, at eight weeks, at nine weeks, right up to that that first trimester. And so here's the other thing. These girls have not been told, these women have not been told that they will see many of them will see their babies. And um, and we were experiencing that in great four, you know, women calling our centers and and calling hotlines and expressing the trauma that they were not expecting. We I had one uh young uh co-ed at University of Florida show up in uh in our pregnancy clinic there in Gainesville who had gotten the abortion pills from an abortion clinic, but she was in so much pain when she was bleeding uh after taking the Mesa Prostol that she went into the shower because that was the only way she felt comfortable dealing with the blood loss that was happening as well as the pain. And she delivered her her nine-week, approximately nine-week baby there in the shower, and it was too big to go down the drain. So here the water from the shower is washing away a lot of the blood, and what she had to literally scoop up her little baby off the off the shower floor, and she she was horribly traumatized. And she came to our center in tears. This was way before the caret, Jacob, came to our center in tears, holding that little baby in like a paper towel, and just saying, I couldn't bring myself to flush that baby down the toilet. I didn't know what else to do. And and so I came to you. And and so so the the reality is this is what's happening with or without the help of the care kit, right? And so it's it's so important that they fully understand and and and look at that. Um, there's a checklist that anyone can look at if they go there. Jacob, I am so thrilled with the website abortionpilltalk.com. It is an absolutely brilliantly done site, which gives a lot of uh a lot of what we um put into our care kit checklist comes from abortionpilltalk.com. Uh, just really challenging girls that they should not take these pills, these dangerous meds, without being able to check off that yes, I have had an ultrasound, yes, I have had a nurse consult. Yes, I have a plan if I need the ER, I know where I'm going to go. I know what ER is closest to me. I am going to tell the ER doctor exactly what I took and tell him uh the blood loss because I've been measuring my blood loss. Um, so and then the big one is I've told somebody what I'm going to do so that if I end up passed out on the bathroom floor, there is somebody who can call 911 for me. And the reality is the the trauma that's happening, and we've had we've had stories, it is so horrible, of young mothers who already have very small children who take these pills with no one else around but their two-year-old toddler and end up bleeding out, passed out on the bathroom floor, and the only person there to try and help is a two-year-old. So imagine the trauma to both their child, their their two-year-old as well as this mom going through this. And so all of this is explained very carefully by a nurse. Um, and then she literally has to check every box that she has accomplished all of those things. And and by the way, throughout the entire brochure, abortion pill reversal is discussed at least three different times with every hotline given. The other thing that's discussed, which is very unique to the care kit, and I don't think is being done uh very well in our pregnancy centers without this checklist, is we have an entire page that deals with coercion and and uh and abortion coercion and and abortioninjury.com and lawyers, and and there are hotlines for them if they are being coerced or they believe they are being uh and you know, maybe that somebody was slipping them the drugs uh and they didn't even realize. I mean, there there's an entire section that explains to them that it is illegal to coerce a woman into taking any or having any kind of abortion and certainly taking these drugs, and that that that person could be charged, whether it be a parent or a boyfriend or anything else. And so that's all included. So when she checks all of those boxes, she signs and dates it. We asked the the nurses at the medical clinic to to make a copy of that for her chart, put it directly in her chart, and then she can go home with that brochure, even if she doesn't go home with the full kit. So, what this is is a very serious attempt to do full informed consent. And um, Cheney can talk a little bit too about uh about what happens if, you know, our hope that this has so many off-ramps. Our hope is she'll she'll go through a few of the pages and go, oh my goodness, I am not doing this. Uh uh and and or if she's taken that first pill that she will immediately seek abortion pill reversal. So we're hoping for all of those on-raps. But if we don't get there and she decides to go through after all of that, then um we do have some instructions and some, you know, uh ability for her to uh to to treat their baby with dignity, uh, even even in death. So Chaney, if you want to share a little bit of that.

SPEAKER_04 29:41

Absolutely. So there's these off ramps, right? The intent of this is to save the life. We wouldn't be supporting it if all it was was, hey, we just don't want women to bleed out in their bathroom. We want babies to be buried. Those are beautiful goals. But the reason we champion this kit is because it's a life-saving tool. However, even when a woman doesn't choose life, and and we're already seeing, you know, 40 to 60 percent life choices with the most abortion determined and periaborative women, by the way. So this is already working in our early pilots. But even for the women that don't take the off-ramp, they take the kit home. Well, it's not the end of the story there either, because we've already had stories that the woman texts or calls the nurse back and says, I can't go through with this. Can I bring you back the abortion pills? And by the way, the abortion pills had the 80-year-old grandmother's name on it. So talk about abortion coercion and how easy it is to get pills when she's not even menstruating at 80. So these girls are given every opportunity to change their mind and to choose life. And even if they start, there's abortion pill reversal. Well, if abortion pill reversal fails, or if she tragically she goes through with the abortion, how do we perform the work of mercy of burying the dead? How do we help keep her from falling in to so much shame and trauma that she starts just getting on that path of repeat abortions? I've heard it's is it at 60% of women who have an abortion had already had one, something along those lines. There is a lifestyle choice cycle that gets women on the path of, well, I've already had one, so I guess I'll just have another one and I'll keep engaging in negative behaviors that lead to this decision. Well, how do we interrupt that? How do we have abortion healing, not 20 years later when she's ready for a Bible study, but right at the moment of her coming to grips with the reality of the fact that she can see a baby here? And so that's why I've been helping centers develop burial or cremation programs for babies who are aborted. And that's hard because no one wants to get to this point with a mom. But it's happening with or without the care kit. Centers all over the country are getting calls about what to do with these babies. And it's not a satisfactory answer to these pregnancy center directors to tell her to flush it down the toilet, or to tell her to ask the abortion industry what to do, or to tell her to bring it back to the abortion clinic, which she probably doesn't even have one, as we just discussed. And so then there's been a few other questions. What do we do with these remains? Do we send her to the emergency room? Well, sometimes she's not having an emergency, and sometimes she's already had the baby in her freezer for a while, and there's all kinds of circumstances. A lot of times, ERs, if the baby's under 20 weeks, we'll just treat that child as medical waste. Are we satisfied with that? And then there's the question of, well, do we call the coroner? You know, my expertise is with these early babies. Maybe if you're worried about a baby having been born alive or or some situation where there's a huge baby, maybe there needs to be an investigation. But in this case, when we're talking about these small, precious lives that a mom can see was far more formed than she ever realized as she's holding that baby in her hand or putting it in the saline solution. Does she not deserve to heal? Does she not deserve to see the reality of it? We're not forcing her to look. We're not prosecuting her if she flushes the toilet. We're not giving her legal advice about how to deal with the remains. We are saying that burial or cremation is an option for you. And in our community, based on what we've researched with our our state laws and our county regulations and our cemeteries and our funeral homes, this is some partners that you can work with. And that is a beautiful service to both these women and these children.

SPEAKER_05 34:11

Yeah, Cheney, uh I I remember, and this was five or six years ago, the very same client I was telling you about at UF that um c brought us the baby. And of course, we were a little bit concerned right there. Uh, what should we do? I mean, I don't think um my nurses had had faced that before. And one of the beautiful things is in the diocese, uh, it's the uh St. Augustine Diocese in Florida, they had a beautiful they have a beautiful cemetery for miscarried stillborn, and they do include aborted babies as well. And and so they were willing to take that baby, and they actually they have a a full mass service every month just for those families. And and so our um our young girl was able to participate with that and the the the healing that came to her, you know, uh after being fully devastated um uh about what she had done and then being able to participate in that service and have that faith community come around her and then be able to bury her baby there with those uh uh other children that had been lost through miscarriage or or abortion was tremendously healing. And so um again, this is this is our heart to say this is a human being, this is not medical waste, this is your baby, and and the answer is it to flush the baby down the toilet and cause more trauma or send it back to the abortion clinic. I can't even imagine, um, but but to to help her um help her uh bury that baby with dignity. And as we said, this would bring her into the healing process much, much quicker. And that's what we need. We need redemption and healing to happen as close to the experience as possible so that we avoid those years of regret and those years of pain where they carried it all alone. And and I I think that's typically what we've been seeing because traditionally with abortion, women don't fully deal with what happened, some of them for decades. And and what's so sad is carrying that silent shame and and and pain with them uh all of those years affects how they deal with their own future children. It affects their marriages, it affects what they say to others. I mean, if I can get a girl who will actually receive healing and fully understand what she's done with that chemical abortion, the fact that she's intentionally taken the life of her own child, that this was her child, and and can really grieve that and and repent and re experience grace and forgiveness, she's not gonna go to her friend four months later who comes to her and says, Oh my goodness, I think I might be pregnant, I think I'll get the pills. What do you think that woman who's received healing is gonna say? Oh yeah, no big deal. I did it just, you know, no, she's gonna look at her and say, You don't want to do this, and it's very painful. And so, so what you've created is an impact not only on her and and future pregnancies that might happen in her life, but every other woman she touches. So if we wait for that healing to happen for 20 years, how many women, including their own children, their own daughters occasionally, have crossed their path and and they have not been able to give you know really good counsel to those women because they're carrying their own shame. And and so that that's why this healing is is paramount. But but we want people to understand and be clear that our our goal with this is that we don't get all the way there. The reality is this is that tool. Our prayers as we use this and use it effectively, is that she will take that off-ramp. And we are seeing, as Cheney said, we are seeing uh between 50 and 60 percent rate of women choosing life. And again, these aren't just women who are on the fence about what to do. These are the women who were bound and determined who for nothing else was bringing them into the center. And I think one of the things, if you're a pregnancy center or you work in a pregnancy center and you're listening to this right now, I need you to hear this. 10 years ago, the ultrasound was a draw. The fact that we would offer a free ultrasound was a huge draw for her to come to our centers because she would have to pay for it in some way, uh shape, or form at the abortion clinic. So here we're offering to do that for free. Well, now not only are the abortion clinics not doing them, or they're not required to do them, and with chemical abortion, these women are being told they do not need an ultrasound. So, what we actually have to sell to her is we have to sell her this nurse consult. We have to sell her the concept that you don't undergo any medical procedure, especially one as serious as this, without sitting down and thoroughly talking about that with a medical professional who can explain to you exactly what's gonna happen to you, exactly uh what could go wrong, and have a plan for what you're gonna do when it goes wrong. I mean, none of you listening have ever had surgery of any kind or taken a very powerful drug of any kind without sitting down with a physician and having it explained to you. And it's just insane to me that that the abortion industry believes that they can just mail these drugs out with women who have zero idea what they're taking, what it's gonna do to them, and what's gonna be on the other side. And so uh we we believe, I believe informed consent saves lives. That that if we're going to say women commit abortions because they don't have resources and they don't know what's happening and they didn't know it was a really uh a baby, and all of those reasons that we say, well, women have abortions because they don't have enough information. Here's the reality: this is the way to get them all of that information. And when they still choose abortion after that, they will never be able to say, I did it because I didn't know there was help available, I didn't know what it was, I didn't know it was a baby, I thought it was a clump of stuff. I, you know, all of those excuses are gone. If if after this she still chooses to end the life of her child, it is a very clear intent decision with full, with full information.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Wow. So just sort of recapping and going back, this is to reach someone who is apt, who is likely, who's per-abortion, to you know, someone who is gone beyond at risk, abortion vulnerable, abortion-minded, um, possibly abortion determined, but now they've proceeded into stepping into buying the pill, getting the pill in route. It's almost in their hand. It's it's um you know, it's it's probably minutes away. Maybe it's on their doorstep in a package. And this is an opportunity to reach them before taking it, or maybe after, you know, really and and the way to get them to draw them into that nearby praising clinic for a one-hour consult, walking through a uh 12 or so checklist where they have to agree to certain things before they, you know, going through that and discovering and getting that education of informed consent. Um and I just want to sort of echo, you know, this this is you know, a pricey clinic uh should be working built on the gospel. They we should be working with excellence because the days are evil. And if you don't, there's a reference, Bible reference of uh let me pull that up. Actually, I've got that here somewhere. Well, I'm finding that. And then lastly, we need to be innovative and see what God does with it, trusting God to work through this. And this is an innovative idea that is asking God to work in this last minute. Um, as you might have said, you know, the you know, the nuclear option, like this is the last the last uh effort that's available, and it provides us with a new window. The ultrasound provided us with a window, not just to provide medical service and info, but an opportunity to have a conversation, and this is providing that conversation. And so okay, so and then the trauma of the bathroom, the trauma of her home where she lives, where she may have been there for a long period of time, is now going to be tainted and and changed based on the trauma of this experience and the you know, the satanic lie of lies or uh uh destructive lies that this is not a baby and this is a a clump of cells, is going to destroy um memories, destroy a home, destroy that experience of you know having a safe place, which is someone's home, very often. And and so this is just like it's a there's a lot going on here, and and for those who are listening, it's understandable that it might take months to sort through this idea. Um, many of us here took months to sort through it. Um, Brandon, I think, took a long time years to it's been in development for years.

SPEAKER_04 43:58

It took Brandon about a A year at Heritage House before he decided he was for the idea and wanted to sell it. Yeah. So we're all going on an evolution here, and I have so much respect for people who aren't there yet, who've chosen not to use it, who who find it to be dangerous in some way or unethical. I I just want to respect where people are with it. We would never want to force a director to use this tool. This is a tool because, as Pam said, we feel like we're running out of our standard tools, right? Pregnancy testing used to be a tool. Now pregnancy tests are sold all over the place at the pharmacy and the dollar store for a dollar. Ultrasound used to be a tool. Now 60% of women having an abortion have already had a kid, and they're being told they don't need an ultrasound before chemical abortion, and there's no legal requirement for them to have one anymore, right? So we're losing our standard tools. So what do we do now? How do we still attract her? This is why Gerald Godsey and Katie Bidmar and others have started using the analogy of Netflix versus Blockbuster. Why are you going to drive down to Blockbuster to pick up your movie when you can get it in your mailbox from Netflix? Why would you go down and go to the pregnancy center when you might not even have transportation or child care for another kid or may not even want the service that the pregnancy center is offering when you can just order pills to be delivered to your mailbox? So we have to have new tools in our toolbox to attract her to the pregnancy center.

SPEAKER_05 45:31

Yeah, and Jacob, I think another piece of that too is that this isn't for everyone. We're not out here saying every pregnancy center, every should should be using this. If you're not seeing those abortion-determined clients, if that's not who's walking through your door, then this is a tool that would just sit on your shelf and would never get used anyway.

SPEAKER_04 45:55

So so really And we don't want it used with abortion vulnerable. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 46:00

Wait a minute, right. So if you're if you're not prepared to do the training and have the medical director and standing orders and nurses involved in this process, then the answer is do what you're called to do and do that well. And and you know, if if what you're doing is just options counseling and and offering parenting classes and some resources, those are all good things. But but let's be clear about what you're doing. But if if you are are a center like mine and like especially with our infinite worth nurse nurses, and uh our we wake up every morning going, how do I get to that girl that's about to take the pill that won't walk into my clinic? How do I how do I reach her first? That that's that's the arrow, the the point of the arrow of my mission statement. So if that's where you are and where you're living, then this is a tool that you probably, first of all, will understand and understand what it's used for. So I I I think that's another thing. I let me be really clear, and I'm just gonna speak for uh Brandon because he's my boss, I guess I can say this. But uh our goal it is is not to make money off of selling a bunch of these kids. We have zero interest in in this in making any kind of a profit. That's not the point of this. So this is not a marketing plea here at all. I if you don't use it, you don't want to use it, or you're not seeing the clients for which this is being used, then by all means, this isn't a necessary tool for you. But if you're a pregnancy center and you're medical and you are seeing this client and you are reaching that client, and you're your and Jacob, you know, you have to spend some money in order to reach that girl. It doesn't happen by osmosis or you, you know, putting a sign out or doing what we did back in my day. So I'll age myself heavily right now, where we named our pregnancy center Alpha Women's Center, so that we would appear at the top of the yellow page ad. I mean, that that's not the world we live in anymore. And so if you're that center that says our mission is to reach that girl who is about to have an abortion and and and to save that baby, then this is a tool you need to seriously look at.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

So I've got a question. So what parts of this kit are cons well part of let's say what parts of the kit and what parts of the consult with a medical professional are educational slash medical?

SPEAKER_05 48:42

The the consult is medical education. Let's be really clear. And medical education takes place all of the time. And and and that doesn't necessarily mean it's a it it's not the kid itself is not a medical device, right? But this is this is education. This is uh the same as if I would get a new prescription from my doctor and I would go to um the the pharmacy or whatever, and they would say, Do you want to consult the pharmacist about this medication that you're taking? I've they're gonna assume I've already consult, I've had a talk with the doctor who prescribed it, right? Um, it's it's the same concept. I don't want to talk to the guy down the street and go, hey, did you ever take this for your uh your high um cholesterol? And how did it do for you? No, I need to talk to a doctor and I need to talk to that pharmacist about you know any anything that I would need to know about this drug. And so it's it's the same concept that way. That's why we prefer that it be a medical clinic, that it be understanding orders from a medical doctor, and that uh and that a nurse or someone with medical uh training is able to do that particular consult. That's best practices. And and I mean, you know, you you can you can choose to do it in a different way. But one of the things I've always said is the consult is so powerful because your your your nurse, your nurse or medical professional has been trained again to what a consult is and and and what a person in crisis is experiencing and how they how they get information and how to make a plan. They they they get that that motivational interviewing. They've been trained to do all of that very well, and so you're using a trained professional. And then the other way I I share this with people is when when someone comes, women have been sold, they've been told that abortion is health care. And so when you ask women uh about making an abortion decision, they don't want to talk to a counselor, they don't want to talk to necessarily, they want to talk to a medical professional, and most of them will say a nurse, because nurses are the most respected or in in lay terms, they're the people we trust the most uh to give us solid information. So, so we're providing that and and in a medical consult, like I used to teach this when I would uh well, you know, Jacob, I did a lot of work in the in in the sex uh sex ed and std world. And so when you're doing an intake and talking to a client about their STD risk, when I start asking them about how num num, you know, how many partners have you had? Who have they been with? What kind of sex you're having? Is it oral, anal, you know, whatever? These are not questions you would sit across a table and ask someone. It's not lunch conversation. But when you're asking these questions in a medical setting and it's coming from a nurse, then they are allowed to ask those kinds of questions because I'm not making a judgment call here. I am trying to help you assess your risk. So you you kind of see the difference in just talking to someone about their sexual behavior and actually doing an intake because you're about to do an STI test and give some education around their risk and the implications of contracting an STI. So I see this very similarly. This is them coming into a clinic for a medical consult where a nurse is gonna say some really tough things and give some really hard information, but it's being done in the context of a medical consult.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

I just want to say one quick thing. I'll let I'll let you respond to that, Cheney. Uh, according to Vitay, they recently came out with a new research study, and the top most impactful person in the woman's life was the father of the baby. But obviously, sometimes that doesn't line up. But you know, if if if the father of the baby is in a certain group of postures, then the father of the baby has the most impactful voice, and then the second was a medical professional was number two, and then the mother of the woman that's pregnant, or the grandmother of the baby was number three, and those were the top three voices according to a recent Vitay uh study um that was done. And so, yeah, so the so the medical professional is either number two or number one, depending on whether the father is um a good voice or not a voice. Yeah, go ahead, Janie.

SPEAKER_04 53:25

I think that Pam's analogy with STI testing, which is a wonderful trend that some pregnancy clinics have taken on, is really apt because by offering the STI test, you're not endorsing her sexual behaviors that are risky. And by offering the care kit consult, we're not endorsing the abortion. We are talking to her about the risks of the abortion, the reality of the abortion, the need for healing and burial after an abortion. So I think that's a really good analogy, Pam. And I think it's understandable why people have ethical concerns here. You know, even I've had quibbles with some of the way that certain clinics that are piloting it are marketing it because they're kind of marketing it to women saying something like, make sure your abortion is safe, you know, and I don't want to imply that abortion can ever be safe, you know. And and even if we're trying to use that as a marketing tool to get her in the care kit, that crosses a line for me. So I understand that this is a new concept. We're building the plane as we're flying it. Pam came out with an amazing, amazing bright training, which she's offering for free. So people don't have to have a bright training subscription to be trained in the care kit. And then an advanced training is going to come out likely next year. So we're still learning about how this can be implemented well. And I'll say one of the big misconceptions was my fault. In the very early days, we were trying to figure out what do we do with these babies, right? Like, do they need to go in a separate center fridge? Is that an option? Wait, do we need to keep them in the woman's house? Eventually, now we learn, we talk to lawyers, we've talked to clinics. Of course, it's it's inappropriate. Now I know, of course, it's inappropriate to have clinics take custody of babies' remains. And so that's not, again, best practices. That's not what we're recommending in terms of how what we do with these precious babies. That's why funeral home partnerships or cemetery partnerships are so important. A funeral home actually is equipped to store babies until a group ceremony. If there, maybe the cemetery only opens and closes a grave for babies once a month. Like Pam was saying, there was a monthly burial service. So that's why local partnerships in your community can fill that need. And I just wanted to say to people, if you if you've heard about the care kit, maybe you're not fully understanding it because there's misconceptions out there, like it's being handed out like candy with no consult, with no signed form, like it's all about keeping babies in center fridges. I even heard here say that people were worried there were abortion pills in the kit, which is, of course, ridiculous. And so I just want everyone to know that it's okay to be skeptical of something new, but please don't be afraid to come talk to us about it, to share your concerns, to really get to the bottom of your objection so that your objection isn't based on something that's not true about the kit. And then when we really do get down to objections, sometimes it's it's about the ethics, and that's a matter of conscience. Of course, we have to respect different people's views on that. And then there's there's worries about medical liability and continuing patient care, which, Pam, I'd love for you to speak to. And then there's worries about the fetal remains, and that's why I'm meeting with centers to go over their state-specific laws, because in some states there's death certificate requirements for babies under 20 weeks, and in some states there are not. And that and some other technical state laws, like whether you can transport the dead body without a burial permit, can determine whether you really need to work with a funeral home or whether you can work directly with a cemetery. So I can help walk sinners through that to assuage their fears a bit and to help them see that this can be done. And again, to emphasize that we hope we never get to that point because we hope women choose life. But Pam, I'd love for you to talk more to this continuing medical care concern.

SPEAKER_05 57:52

Yeah, I uh one of the things that we want people to do is make sure that they're um working with their medical director. I think that really does help. Your medical director has insurance that covers uh his his or her practice. And if there are uh clear standing orders of what the scope of practice is and what and how this fits into that scope and what you will and won't do. And I mean, because there's gonna have to be discussion too about uh when you when you're allowed to do an ultrasound and when you can't and what what those parameters are. So that all has to be involved in the protocol in in which you use this. And so it really should be done in conjunction with your medical director. And um, and so that's a process as well, Cheney, right? It's just gonna take some time for you to sit with your medical director and really hash out every bit of this, and and uh, and so this isn't something that you go, oh, I'm gonna just order this tomorrow and we're just gonna start doing that. It's just not that that and and that was really never the in intent. We really want it to be done thoughtfully and and with as many best practices are as possible. And and and we appreciate the grace that you give to us because you understand we were flying this plane while we were building it. And so there are things you learn along the way that you really didn't even know you had to learn. And so, and that, and that's really why we do want to hear from you, and we do want to hear your concerns and all of those things because that helps us address those in a way that you know we didn't we're not ignoring them. We won't we want to hear them. And and and I will say this, Cheney, too. Um, I I really encourage if you're a pregnancy center, whether you use the care kit or not, to me, that the dealing with how we are going to deal with these babies is is important, whether it's a girl who brings you that aborted baby and she's traumatized, or think about it. That's why I think the miscarriage kit itself for pregnancy centers is just such a powerful tool because think about that that um patient that you had who went through APR, she regretted, she got the progesterone, and sadly her baby still passed away and didn't make it. And now the trauma that she's experiencing because she's dealing with all of the pain. I think about a young couple that had nothing to do with the chemical abortion, but who came to our clinic uh thinking they were going to have an abortion, that they were kind of on that path, but chose life, both of them together, the the boyfriend and the mom. And then they came for a second ultrasound about two weeks after they had made a decision for life and there was no heartbeat. And now I had literally bawling both he and her in our ultrasound room, just crying about the loss of life. Well, is all we're gonna do say, you know, go to the ER? You know, what what are we what are we doing for that couple? How are we coming alongside them and helping them grieve and and and and honor the life that they they've lost? And so there are so many reasons why as a pregnancy center you should know this information and have a plan. And and if you don't, then I think it's a disservice to the clients you're seeing, whether you ever use a care kit or not on that level. So I I think it's well worth you taking the time to make a policy for your center about um fetal remains. And and Shaney's uh a great person to help you do that because she's done so much research. And so uh, you know, get a hold of her. But but don't just say, I hope it never happened. I hope no, this never happens. I mean, the reality is it's going to happen, it's happening right now. And so, you know, regardless of your use of the carrot, you need to have policy and procedure.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

That's good. So I just want to share a story. So Connie Embrecht bought the first abortion pill she could buy online um from a place that did not require prescription. So it came from India and it had a return address in her home uh city of Las Vegas, Nevada, and the return address went to a dirt lot. And when we looked up that address on Google Maps, it even had a homeless camp at that time in that dirt lot. And so the idea that, you know, some some may say, or some have said, you know, you should go back to the abortion pill provider. Um, you know, the idea is that these abortion pill providers are not providing care. And in fact, they are providing false information, and they will even tell the woman through the text that came in this pill kit that she bought an abortion pill that she bought from India. It actually had the text that said um to go to the, you know, if you bleed X amount within X time, to go to the ER and do not tell them you took medication and they will treat you for miscarriage. And so that was actually in the text, in the writing. And and so this is, you know, people are being given, you know, this essentially is setting up for a disaster. And so uh and the reason why we're flying a plane uh is because we didn't have time to fully build it and then and then test it and then take off. We're trying to respond to a crisis. And um, yeah, so my next question is uh it comes to the you know honoring the the child who you know with the fetal remains conversation, you know, how does that provide dignity and and honor the human who is you know who is there? Yeah, can we just I I think we should spend a little time talking about how that provides dignity and honor and recognizes the human life that's at his present.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:43

Well, this is a heavy topic, Jacob, and it's very triggering for people because many, many people that have worked in the pregnancy center world have had miscarriages. And many, many people were not given the choice or the option to bury their baby, whether their doctor just said come in for DNC surgery and they didn't know they could request those remains, whether their state made it up to hospital policy what happens to miscarried babies' remains and not even parental rights, whether they just were told to go home and flush the toilet. Um, there are so many women who have a very hard time even looking at the care kit or the miscarriage kit because of their own story. And I just wanted to take a moment to acknowledge that and to say that you were not given adequate options and choices. You did the best you could at something that was not your fault. It was not wrong of you to to go through this experience to flush your baby. Please forgive yourself and please help other women that have more choices. Please know that you deserve care for your loss. And there are people in the pro-life safety net like Heaven's Gain Ministries that want to accompany you with free peer support so that you can get your own healing and be more ready and equipped to deal with women in your center who are going through miscarriages and abortions. So, with that said, encouraging babies to be buried or cremated. And when we're talking about very little babies, I usually recommend burial because cremation doesn't result in a lot of bone mass. So essentially you're just getting back whatever box the baby was cremated in. But that matters a lot to some moms. That's what they prefer, and that's a great option. But a lot of times burial is is something that moms really desire. But that recognition of the humanity of the unborn baby, regardless of the circumstances of their death, whether it was a miscarriage or an abortion, that Changes the culture. Because now we're acknowledging that this is a human being that was in the wound. And when we talk about building a culture of life, we should talk about a culture that honors and upholds the dignity of every unborn child, regardless of how long they were alive. And regardless of the circumstances.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:29

Yeah, so so well said, Chaney. And I I was thinking about I I kind of scroll through reels occasionally when I'm bored, which is really late at night only. But I came across this reel of an African American woman who had had an abortion and and had come to grieve, and and I believe she saw her baby. I didn't see the entirety of it. But she was literally sobbing and just you could just see everything in her, just recognizing that that was her baby and that no one was allowing her to grieve the fact that that this was a baby. And and I I watched that and I thought and and many of the comments were you know from sub pro-life folks that were like, you know, she's at the beginning of healing. This is where healing will begin. That she acknowledges that in fact it was a baby and and it wasn't just a big clump of tissue, and just to see that pain. And I and I said, I don't know that she was given the optiony of treating that baby with dignity, probably to just flush the baby down the toilet, and that was dealing with all of that trauma. And the reality is that part of her healing could have been had had Christian people, godly people come around her and offered her that grace and and and that hope of redemption, uh, and and the ability to acknowledge and you know, not pretend it wasn't something that this was her baby and allow her to grieve. So I I think, you know, when I saw that, just witnessed it even on a little reel and and saw her pain. I said, this is what we're bringing. And one of the things that you said, Jacob, I find fascinating. Um you were saying earlier that that the bathroom becomes that point of trauma or the bedroom or you know, the place. And the abortion industry has recognized this amazing trauma to women, and they are now some of them, not all of them, but some of them I have heard are suggesting to women that they that they rent a hotel room or someplace other than their own home to go through the procedure so that that avoids the trauma being their own bathroom. And I'm sitting here while I was listening to this, and I I thought, this is insane. You recognize the the high level of trauma that this drug is costing this woman enough to tell her not to do it in her own house so that she doesn't have to revisit that trauma every time she walks into her own bathroom. And and again, renting hotel rooms and doing this by themselves, how how are they going to get help? Where you know, do they even know where help is? And you know, it's so it's just I mean, the whole thing is is so hard. And what we need we need to honor the dignity of that child. We need to come alongside and offer compassion and love to this woman and pray that we can get her off this path that leads to death and pain and destruction and choose life. But it's the a at the full end of it, we've got to be able to honor the life of that child if the child is aborted and come alongside that mother and see her get healing and redemption.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

So I'd like to g ask each one of you to to recap or summarize the problem, the the pain and the solution or this, you know, this idea, and where someone might share concerns or invite questions to come and, you know, and when they have concerns and questions.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:57

Well, my summary will be quick. The problem is we've got women accessing these horribly dangerous drugs and taking them with absolutely no oversight. It it uh not only kills their their child, but it puts their own life in danger and and certainly their uh trauma and and future issues going on for her. So so we need to intervene, we need to find her, we need to inject ourselves into that decision-making process, and and hopefully by doing that and by reaching her first, we can uh avoid the pain altogether and have her choose life uh and and offer support there. And then obviously, if she chooses abortion, that that we offer a path to healing for her and honor that baby that that she has lost. So that's really important, and that that's really the whole uh reason for this. And I and I am I welcome your comments. You can give them directly to me at pam at brightcourse.com. So this is my name, pam at brightcourse.com. Feel free to reach out to me there. Um, and Chaney can share her contact as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:11

Yes, so people can reach me at chaney at towardhome.org, and um that's my website as well, and you can book a consult for fetal remains. And I would just say that if this is resonating with you, if you have a heart for this, if you want to know how to deal with the most abortion determined and very abortive women, if you want to learn how to care for fetal remains in a way that is dignified, please reach out to us, please pray about this. And if this is not resonating with you, is it if this is even traumatizing to you, please know that we totally respect you, we honor you, we thank you for your work in the pro-life movement, and we want to be able to keep the lines of communication going because I understand that this can be misused. Okay, Pam, Pam and I have talked a lot about how that medical console is really important to proper use. We talked a lot with the ethicist about how the consent form is really important to ethical use. We've talked a lot about how just uh telling women to bury babies in the backyard is not best practices, or keeping babies in fridges is not best practices. So we're not saying that this can't be misused, but we are saying there is a way to use this properly, and when it is used properly, it is a powerful tool in our tool.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:47

Well, thank you, Pam and Chaney. Cheney, would you close out this podcast with a prayer just for those who are struggling with this idea and for those who are just grappling with all of all of what's included and involved.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:00

Absolutely. Lord Jesus, we thank you so much that you attuned to our hearts. You are so kind to us and you wish us to be in brotherly love with one another. Jesus, if the care kit has in any way come between brothers and sisters, I just pray against the enemy's divisiveness. I pray for diversity and strength and respect for different people's consciences. We thank you that there's plenty of examples in scripture for what to do when believers disagree. Jesus, we just bless all those who disagree on the care kit and we just repent of any mishandling of the situation. And Jesus, I just pray for new ideas, not just the care kit, but other new innovative ideas for how to respond to chemical abortion. Lord, I pray that the misunderstandings about the kit would be silent. And I pray, Lord, that together we really can advance a culture of life. And that starts often with our own hearts. In your holy name we pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:20

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:21

There's a stranger in the fire shining brighter than the flames, and I know he wasn't there before. Well, I heated up the fire and I threw them in the flame. But now I hear the call walking out the door. Oh I got you at the end.