SPEAKER_04 0:02

This is only the beginning. Even the spinning out of control. This is only the beginning. Even though it feels just like the thing seems wrong. How do the dog? How beautiful. I love if I can start a stop to it. But I love how soul started.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

To begin with Well, welcome to the ProLife Team Podcast. I'm Jacob, but I'm here with Kristen. Kristen, would you share your backstory and then we'll dive into your, yeah, your story in academia.

SPEAKER_06 3:04

So thanks for having me on the show, Jacob. I'm Kristen Collier. I'm a uh wife and a mother and a physician. Uh briefly, so I, my backstory is I grew up as a Michigander, grew up in suburban Detroit, uh uh in a um house that I can see from my deck. Actually, my mom and dad live uh right behind us. Um and I would say grew up as a secular humanist, really without any religious background. I would say actually grew up as someone who grew up with an anti-religious bias, knew I always wanted to be a doctor, came to the University of Michigan in the 1990s to study science. Uh, was uh very fortunate to be able to go to medical school at the University of Michigan, did my medicine residency and chief residency at University of Michigan hospitals. And now I have the privilege of being a board-certified internist. So I take care of adults with multimorbidity, chronic illness, I address their chronic health needs, their preventative health needs. I've been taking care of them for 25 years. So in my role in medicine, I take care of patients, I teach medical students, and I help run the residency program at internal medicine, oversee our primary care track, and also notably run a program at the medical school on health, spirituality, and religion. Um, I came to faith uh about 10 years ago. I was baptized in the Christian church in 2016 along with my boys. Um, so my husband, my boys, and I are all now uh uh professing Christian people and very grateful for that. And since my Christian baptism, I also have had a total conversion in the way that I see my work in medicine, where I formerly, I would say, was a very pro-choice uh and I would say at times pro-abortion advocate, and now consider myself to be deeply pro-life across the spectrum from conception to natural death. Um, so my academic work really right now focuses on how does medicine root human dignity and how does our conception of human dignity root our obligations to people at the margins of life. So I I particularly like to write and speak about Christian bioethical theological issues, um, both in the Christian uh community, but also to give talks to people in outside the Christian community, specifically at the margins of life. So I speak a lot about abortion, uh euthanasia, physician assistant suicide, and increasingly so, even things in between like IVF and assisted reproductive technologies. Aside from my medical life, I am a uh a wife to uh a lovely man who I've known since high school, and uh we have four boys. So life is very full and rich.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Awesome. Yeah, thanks for that backstory. So tell us about your experience um in medicine and in in and you know being a professor uh when it comes to you know going you know, having your position change from you know supporting an abortion as a choice to supporting life as the as the you know the desired outcome.

SPEAKER_06 5:49

Yeah, no, I mean I think thank you for that question. I I I do feel like I I I don't um I'm not the only person who has changed their mind about very serious things over the course of their life, but to speak for my particular experience, it's been um I don't know how to describe it, it's been really life-changing to uh come to faith and have the Lord call me and to be able to respond in a way that uh led me into the Christian church. And then out of that, but also out of the kind witness of several pro-life people, uh, be able to have my mind changed about abortion. So um what that's been like is it's been a it's been a whiplash for me, but it's also been a whiplashing event for people around me who have known me at the university since I came here in 1993, and they knew me as one way, and they now know me as a very public person in a different way. So it's it's been a very rich experience, and I wouldn't trade it for the world, but it also, of course, has come with challenges that I've tried to view as opportunities for me to continue to learn how to reach across uh ideological division, how to be able to um sit with conversation partners and find common ground when discussing controversial issues and how to write, speak, and witness to the truth in a way that um doesn't compromise, but also can be an invitation to see things in a different way. Um, because someone gave me that invitation once, and and and because of that, in the Lord's grace, I now am a pro-life person. So, what that has looked like in a particular way is that because I mean, I think I I think like a lot of probably people of my generation, especially women in the academy, I really never had any exposure to pro-life people. I I never had any exposure to pro-life arguments, and I just was raised in a sea uh of assumption that that it was just sort of this, I think, presuppositional sort of truth, that if you were a woman, particularly one who was educated and in the academy, that abortion wasn't unquestioned good. And even after my Christian baptism, because I I didn't have like a moral imaginary that included prolife people in in my purview, particularly women in academia, I I was like, well, how can I, how can I change my mind about abortion? Like I just didn't see how that was possible. I didn't know what like what that looked like. And I, you know, at some point, even though I did lament abortion as sort of maybe like a necessary evil, I thought, I thought, you know, how can I call myself a self-respecting female physician scientist and change my mind about abortion? I thought that abortion was necessary for women to achieve um their goals in life and society. So after uh my mind was changed on this topic through again the faithful witness of many people, including my husband and some pro-life scholars, and again, the Lord, um taking, I think, some spiritual blinders off my own eyes, my work has dramatically changed. So in particular, I uh sh uh decided to, you know, I can still talk about medical topics, but I no longer, you know, uh give talks on hypertension or uh, you know, uh contraception or things I used to talk about. Um I can still talk about those things, but I I really changed my academic focus to trying to think about how can we defend the imagodei in medicine, because medicine has a particular, I think, charge and that we are trusted to take care of people who bear the imagodei. And these are people, you know, bearing literally, you know, God's image made by him and loved by him and welled by him into creation. And if if if medicine doesn't defend the imagade, like who's gonna do it? You know, and so because we literally, you know, make decisions based on our conception of who matters and who doesn't in medicine, people's lives are at stake. And I I I realized at some point from a even from a even, I mean, theologically, you know, for sure, it it, you know, my my theological commitments preclude abortion from being a legitimate um healthcare practice. But also just from a justice angle, I thought I can no longer stand behind a practice that targets our most vulnerable prenatal sisters for death and call that healthcare. I just can't from a justice lens. And so uh it's been a really beautiful technical or privilege to see like my scientific, technical, um, justice, and theological lens all come together and see abortion for for what it really is. And I I know this is, you know, somewhat controversial to say, but now I see abortion as rooted in violence. It's it's violence against women, it's violence against our prenatal sisters, and it's violence in the person that performs the abortion. Um, I know there are some of my pro-choice colleagues actually who in their truth telling have called abortion violence too. And that's just something that we have to reckon with on both sides. Um, but yeah, it's completely changed the trajectory of my academic work. And I'm, you know, uh it's been challenging in some ways. I'm happy to talk about that, but it's also been, I think, an exercise in humility and in um uh communication about how I can communicate these truths that now I feel really privileged to have been able to see and to communicate those with others who also need to um I think see the truth for them to be set free. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

So and I I I remember hearing you talk at the Michigan uh conference a few months ago. And I think one of the stories you shared was regarding how you were can uh canceled or you know, you're you know, being told to be silent. Can you tell us sort of you know what that you know, tell us more? And I and I'm pretty sure I remember you t you talking about that.

SPEAKER_06 11:13

Yeah, no, sure. I'm happy to talk about that. I think that's probably the most dramatic example of the challenges that have come with taking a public pro-life physician, but I'm happy to talk about that. So the story that I had mentioned at the talk was something that happened to me in 2022. So I was baptized in 2016. I came to see the reality of what abortion is and changed my mind on abortion in 2018, and then started speaking out about abortion around that time. And I thought things were going okay. And then I things were going okay, actually. I I received an email in uh 2022, it was like in the spring from my university. And the email was a beautiful invitation, which I was really excited about to be able to give the uh physician keynote address at our medical school's white coat ceremony. So, white coat ceremony is a ceremony that's held at a lot of medical schools. At our medical school, it's like the um ceremony where our newly admitted medical students come to Hill Auditorium in Ann Arbor and they get their white coat. And it's a beautiful day because everyone's family's come and it's like the start of this brand new journey for them. They take like an oath, they get their stethoscope, um, they get their white coat, and then there's uh a talk by a physician. And the talk by the physician is considered to be a really big honor to ask to give it because it's like you're the first physician to welcome people to the profession. It's even considered by some people more of an honor to give that than to the graduation talk. And so I received the invitation, and the invitation came to me because um I was chosen by our medical school's chapter of the Gold Humanism Honor Society. That is an honor society that a lot of medical schools have in North America that recognizes physicians who provide compassionate care. So I was chosen to be the speaker and I accepted, and I emailed my mentors and I emailed my mom, and uh I quickly accepted. And so a few, maybe a few days later, or a week later, there was a uh really interesting sort of, I think, constellation of events that happened that um one was that the Dobbs decision came down. This was in June of 2022. And on the same day, actually that morning before that, before the Dobbs story broke, uh an interview I had done with The Pillar, which is a Catholic uh website, came out. It was an interview with me by Charlie Timosi about my conversion from a pro-choice atheist physician to a pro-life Christian one. So that's the Dobbs decision, of course, created a lot of emotion about abortion at our place, as it did at a lot of places. And then that interview with me started sort of making the rounds. And so people were like, wait a minute, you know, did we just ask like a pro-life physician? Because a lot of people didn't know I was pro-life, right? Um, did we just ask a pro-life physician to give like the Whitefoot ceremony talk? And so that uh created some angst in some folks, and a petition was started actually to get me removed um as the speaker and a cancellation attempt. So the petition was started and it was sent around to the incoming students, to alumni, to faculty and staff. And the petition was very hard in that it had a lot of accusatory language and sort of assumptions about me, and the signatures grew to over 400. And that story started making the local news. And so during that time, obviously it was really stressful for me because I knew this petition was going around and I knew that there was a pressure and cancellation attempt for me to either be canceled from the talk or to force me to step down from the talk. And you know, I think in all my my humanness, I mean, who would want to give a talk, you know, when you're not welcome and you know that there probably is gonna be some kind of disruption? It's a hard enough talk to give, but to know that you're gonna go into a big auditorium in front of like hundreds of people and you know, uh there could be some kind of disruption, it's it's a really tough situation to be in. So I talked about it with my mentors, uh, with my husband, and you know, we decided that I shouldn't step down from the talk because if I step down from the talk, what does that say? Like I didn't do anything wrong. Uh, pro-lifers have a have a have a right to speak at the university and to welcome medical students. I wasn't gonna be speaking about abortion at the talk, and I was elected to give the talk by a really well-informed process. So there was a lot sort of intervening conversations with medical school leadership. And thank goodness that the dean at the time, Marshall Rangay, decided to not cancel my talk. And he sent an email to the entire faculty, students, and staff saying that, like, I was voted to be the speaker, I never planned to address a controversial topic, and that we don't like cancel people's right to speak just because they hold opinions that may differ from other people. Like, that's the purpose of the university and thinking about academic freedom and freedom of speech. And so I gave the talk at Hill Editorium, it was actually four years ago, this past Sunday. And during my opening moments of my talk, there was a staged walkout, and about maybe it's hard to know exactly, but maybe about a third of the audience of the medical students got up and walked out of my talk. And some other members of the audience walked out as well. And the tough thing about it was there was someone planted in the audience who recorded the walkout, and then that video that night went viral on social media and made the national news. And then the next morning I woke up to my husband sort of elbowing me, telling me basically that the story was like the top story on Fox News, which is a professional person is like your worst nightmare to have your academic work and your life be brought into the new media in that way. Um, after that, there was a lot of conversation uh amongst various parties about various things. Um but uh I think I'm very pleased, obviously, that the university leadership did the right thing and stood up for academic freedom. Um, and it just was a really tough time for all of us, for our students and for myself professionally. I had to have like a bodyguard, as I mentioned during the talk, um, you know, for my presentation. I had death threats, the students had death threats. I had to like drive a different way to work, the media got a hold of my phone and Tim's phone and my email. I didn't go on any media shows. You won't be you won't see me actually going on like CNN. If you go to YouTube, you'll find the story on YouTube or whatever, and that uh Google search, but I didn't talk about it just because um, you know, for many reasons, but I didn't want to be like brought into some kind of political narrative about this topic because I don't believe abortion, I think it's a moral issue, really, not really a political one, although political mechanisms can help protect children, obviously. And I just thought about all the time that actually Jesus was silent and all the space it makes for grace and mercy. So I didn't actually speak to the media about it. So it's been four years, and I think the hardest part about that and the work is still feeling and knowing actually that some of my deeply um held relationships that I really treasured with colleagues at the university are continue to be fractured. Um and I get, I get there's there's a lot of emotion about abortion. But a lot of us, if we probably were more public about what we thought, a lot of us disagree about a lot of things. And it just really saddens me that despite a difference in of opinion on one topic that is contested, that these relationships couldn't survive. I pray for reconciliation of my relationships with some of my colleagues, but some of them are still very deeply fractured because of my particular stance on abortion. And that has hurt and it has put wedges between me and some students and some faculty and some other people in the academy. And that's been really hard. That's been the hardest part. You know, you can deal with the rest of things, right? You can deal with like loss of opportunities and I've been dropped from projects and such because of my pro-life stance, and that that's fine. I can handle that. It's really the broken relationships that really is the hardest part.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Yeah, it sounds hard, but it sounds like it, you know, it's not doing right is worth doing, even if it's well, especially when oh, regardless of whether it's hard.

SPEAKER_06 19:01

Yeah, I mean, I think I mean, I think that's so right. I used to think that you know, that safety was the absence of danger, but now I know the safest place you can be in is in God's will. And trying to discern like what is God's will for us. And I and I think about, you know, the the passage in the gospel accounts where, you know, Jesus himself says, like, in this trouble, it in this world you will have trouble. Like you will have trouble. It's not like you might have trouble, you will have trouble. But just remember, and he says, But, you know, take heart, I've overcome the world. So it's one of those things that, you know, Jesus has already won the battle against sin and death, and and he has, you know, be beat death in his glorified resurrected body. And all I have to do is like stand firm and defend human dignity until he returns. Like I'm not being asked to do that much, but I agree with us. I think I agree with you that I think it is really hard sometimes when you feel pressure. There's like a very strong cultural um bend, like there was an academic medicine towards one particular slant. It is very hard sometimes to sort of uh, you know, toe your line or sort of stay firm against that pressure. But again, if we if we can't be expected to, you know, I think if we're given gifts of being able to be in the academy or to be a physician or to be in the public space, we have to use those gifts for good. And if we're gonna be have some moral courage and stand up for what is right, that has to happen in these little moments and the big moments because you know that those those moments make up the totality of our life. And and we have to someday give an account to the Lord of how we did or did not defend human dignity when Christ returns.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

So in Psalms 23, it talks about um, you know, do not fear. It talks about you know getting rest from green pastures and still waters. And then it talks about following Jesus down righteous pathways. And then the next the right next verse is, you know, and you know, as you walk through the valley of death, you know, do not fear for, and then it changes the text to I am, you know, praying to Jesus of I am, you know, for you are with me. And then the rod and the staff provide comfort. And then there's this feast, like, you know, Jesus prepares a feast before you in the presence of your enemies. I'm just wondering, did you experience a feast where Jesus was preparing a table before you know in front of, you know, with you at the table in the presence of, you know, maybe wolves off in the distance peering on. Did you experience that?

SPEAKER_06 21:19

Yeah, I mean, I think what I what I experienced during that time, it's really hard to put into words, yeah, a few things. Um, one is that I I think in my when this was all starting and there was the pressure and the cancellation attempt and and the petition was growing. I think I reverted to my previous hard won, you know, academic traits of being like the eldest daughter of like just self sufficiency. Like, I'm just gonna like just settle down and try to like deal with this head on myself with whatever tools I have in my toolbox. And I just remember waking up in the middle of that. It was like one Sunday morning, and I was like, why am I reverting to my like worldly earthy tools in this spiritual battle? Because it is, it is in part, I think, a spiritual battle these things. And I was like, you know, I can't do this anymore. I need, I need to reach out for help. And I didn't know really even what I was asking for. Like I wasn't sure what help I needed, actually. But I just sent this email out to like 30 people that I knew. Um, some of them were Christians, some of them were like active mentors, some are just people were just people of goodwill that, you know, that that that I know that that will support me. And I can't tell you what a robust response that I got after and I guess I really was just like, I don't know what to do, but like to someone help me understand like what I should be doing. And I had one particular person who I can't name because they're private, um, that's at my university, who called me like 10 minutes after that. And he talked to me like every 48 hours, um, and sort of would advise me about conversations with leadership and with all these things. He's very high up at the university and he knows how to navigate these things. I had like the Plum Group, just the pro-life U of M group on the undergrad campus, they got their board together like on a Sunday and they wrote like a letter of support and sent it to Michigan Medicine Leadership. I had so many people praying for me. I had people reach out to people at different universities who were like at the level of my dean to like send my dean letters and talk to him about like I can't really cancel Kristen's talk, you know. So I had all the support. The day of the talk, which was so stressful, because you know, my husband and I had to decide are we gonna take our boys to sit in the audience of this talk where we were promised that something was gonna be disruptive and all of that. I was so nervous about to give up and give this big talk, knowing something was gonna happen. And I literally felt like almost like carried or like floating on that stage by prayers. I had people praying for me like over the world. And it was, I felt it so powerfully. And um, there was like a piece there that like surpassed all understanding, you know? It was, it was like I was absolutely not there in any illusion of self-sufficiency, you know. And then even after that, even to this day, which is so just like touching to me, I still get letters from people mailed to my academic office from like all over the world, actually, from people who are like, you know, I heard about your story, and you know, I have a disabled daughter with Down syndrome, and you know, she doesn't know what a white coat ceremony is, but she, you know, it, you know, knows what what it means to sort of like, you know, love life or something like that, right? Or people sent me books, and I've had so many people say they they've prayed for me. And I've felt that, I have felt that in such a real way sometimes when I feel that I am in a sort of a unfriendly situation, or I'm being able to sort of go um a little bit into a a place that is um somewhat hostile. So I have really, really felt that. Um, and I think about I think it's in the Hebrew scriptures, I can't think of which prophet book it is in, but there's a conversation about that, you know, God will be like, you know, a wall of fire around Jerusalem and she will not need walls, you know, something like that. And I love that passage because again, like the danger is still there, but it's it's the Lord Himself who provides your protection, you know? And again, the safest place you can be in is in the presence of God. And so I have felt his presence in such a real way and through his church and through his people in a way that like I'll never forget. And it's been sustaining for me in ways that I have felt in such a real way in so many different settings and so many different places and in so many different touch points of tension about these topics.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Wow. I was wanting to reflect on what you said you said surpassed all understanding. So there's in response to the prayer and the peace that you're experiencing. So in Philippians uh four, six and seven, it says, uh, do not be anxious for anything.

SPEAKER_05 26:19

Do not be anxious for anything.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

And in every but in every situation, by prayer and petition with thanksgiving, present your request to God. And then it says, and the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus. So it's like, yeah, so essentially, you know, avoid you know, when you're when you're feeling anxiety, which I think you know, in this movement and beyond this movement, anxiety is always uh you know coming after us. And so this is just saying, you know, in that situation and beyond, just yeah, pray with petition, like ask and be thankful. And and then the peace of God, which is epic, and you said surpass all understanding, and then verse seven it says transcends all understanding, or I'm sure in some versions it may even say surpassed. So I just yeah, it just seems like that really reflects your experience with people praying for you, and then you experiencing that epic peace of God.

SPEAKER_06 27:19

Yeah, I I do think that that it's been it's really hard to describe. I think other Christians get what I'm talking about, about this like really almost like supernatural peace that doesn't that doesn't even like you shouldn't probably feel peace in some of these situations, but you do, you know, and you're so so thankful. Um there was this one instance. So last November, I was asked to be um an expert witness for a state legislature who is trying this the state legislature was trying to defend restrictions on abortion in a big state case. And so I was asked to be actually the expert witness for the state legislature from like an ethics standpoint. And then I had a I had to like, and this is definitely not my comfort zone. I like have never participated in any like legal stuff, and I had to read all these illegal things and the state constitution, all the expert reports from all these bioethicists that were on the other side. And I flew to this state and I had to take the stand in this in this state um with this judge and the attorneys and this, this, the, you know, the state attorney general and the state legislature. It was like, this is a big deal. And it was so stressful because I had like never testified before. Um I had, you know, memorized all my studies about abortion and all my stats. And I knew, you know, the weaknesses and the strengths of all these different points. And I had all my arguments here. And, you know, just it felt like a really high, it was like a high, high pressure situation. And, you know, the the pro-life side that was defending these abortion destructions, it was a pretty motley crew. It was like myself, uh a local uh OBGIN and uh another healthcare professional and our legal team. And the pro-choice side were like all the big people, right? Planned Parenthood, like the ACLU, the Center for Reproductive Rights, all the lawyers were from Harvard. They had all the big bioethicists from like all the big Ivy League schools. And we felt like it was like David and Goliath, you know what I'm saying? And it was so stressful. And I at that point was like, Lord, like, I don't know how I got here. I have no idea like what I'm doing here. Honestly, if you would have told me even like 10 years ago, I would have been like in a big staycase trying to defend abortion restrictions. I would have said, you're totally out of your mind. And I said, but you've brought me here. And I'm just, you know, I just know that you'll be able to walk with me through this difficult time. And I took that stand and I had some opportunities that I really feel like were supernaturally given to me to defend the truth there. And I had people in my network that were praying for me again at I at that moment. They knew I was testifying. And I felt so supported. And if you had said, you know, I'm gonna, you know, like with that, or even with the white coat ceremony, if you're gonna like take a spreadsheet and you're gonna put all the reasons why you shouldn't do this, all the reasons why you should, a rational person would be like, Yeah, I'm not gonna do that, that legal work. And also, I'm not gonna give that white coat talk because like, why would you? You know, even my parents were like, why are you doing this? Like, why don't give the talk? Like you're jeopardizing this career that you've worked so hard for. It's just gonna bring pain to you and your family. And again, like rationally, like that makes sense, right? So if you put it down on a spreadsheet, no rational person would be like, Yeah, I think I might give this talk. But it's almost like despite yourself, like you're doing it because you feel like you can't not not do it. Like you feel like you're being pulled along to do this, that is sort of like again, transcends you in a way. And so you know at that point that it's it's just not you in your in your own stead, that this is the Lord and the faithful prayers of money that are actually like animating you at that point. So that those experiences, even though they've been really challenging in so many ways, have been really a gift for me to be able to understand, again, as like a newer Christian for the past 10 years, what what really I think is at stake in these conversations, but also, you know, again, the the powerful presence of God and his people in a way that I never really would have understood without this, uh, these trials, I would say. So I'm very thankful. I'm very thankful for these situations, even though they've been probably things I wouldn't have chosen if you had put them on a menu in my right mind in front of me. I've grown in a way that is I wouldn't have been able to grow in any other way without these experiences.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Wow. So I want to ask you to reflect on what you your thoughts on the Imago Day. Um before I do that, I want to share. So at my church, um one of the pastors shared a story or a you know, a description of what you know what that looks like, and a way to try and like imagine being image bearers of God. And so the story went, um, you know, imagine there's like a giant mirror that reflect reflects God, and that mirror was broken into well, 12 billion pieces, and each person has a small, unique reflection of who God is being a part of that mirror. Um, but yeah, so what are your thoughts on you know being image bearers of God or what what it means to be a Mago Day or connected to a Mago Day?

SPEAKER_06 32:37

Yeah, kind of clarify your your analogy.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

So your pastor said like that the mirror, he was saying um the mirror reflects reflected God, and each of us reflect God in a unique way, as if we're one sliver or part of this giant mirror that reflected God. Um and so everyone, you know, we all sort of bring a unique part of that puzzle or or um a unique reflection, um, but while we all still reflect the same God. Most people were essentially trying to point out how we have different, we we bring different, you know, a unique, you know, the same reflection of God, but it may be a different part of the mirror. Um maybe reflect being a part of the body of Christ, but we all have unique ways um in which we reflect who God is and different, a different story, we have different um experience, we have different unique aspects in where we can reflect who God is.

SPEAKER_06 33:36

Yeah, I mean, I am not a theologian by any sense of the imagination or word. So I will give my own imperfect uh, you know, reckoning with this topic as best as I can um as a non-theologian. So I think, you know, I I've thought a lot about this topic, um, you know, is because it's definitely something that I had no exposure to, the idea of the Imago J or the image of God, you know, before I was a Christian person and I had no idea why human beings mattered. And it's something that um I talk a lot about with learners asking questions like, why do you think human beings matter? And the the questions I've gotten, the answers I've gotten back to that question from adults and um children and teenagers and students and physician assistants and people in healthcare have been very alarming. Like, how do we root human dignity? Like, what were we basing that on? And I think before I understood what the image of God meant, what that term even was, I like I think a lot of my colleagues and a lot of people in society thought that human beings mattered because of certain attributes that they had or like traits that they had, or a level of self-awareness or rationality or agency. And like what that does when you sort of, there's not there's nothing extrinsic in terms of internal dignity, but there's this attributed dignity, which is the framework that I used to fall into. What happens there is that sets up tiers of human dignity, right? Where only certain members of Homo sapiens belong in our moral sphere of concern. Again, people with a certain level of self-awareness or rationality or agency or ability. And what happens then is that system sets up tiers of human dignity where people who are probably the most vulnerable members of Homo sapiens, the ones you probably should have a preferential option to protect, get left out and become discarded as part of throwaway culture. So prenatal children, infants, people with disabilities, people with dementia. And so I now see people as having an inherent worth and in viable dignity, not based on what they can do or can't do, but because of who they are and who they are are made in God's image. So then sometimes I know there's some theological maybe controversy of like, what does that mean? Is that like a visible image of God? Is that like sort of the rational mind? Is that like some kind of like attribute of like cognitive? Like, what is what does that mean? And I think of the, I think of um the verse that's Colossians 1.15, talking about how Jesus is like, you know, the exact image of the invisible God. He is like the perfect image and he's perfectly reflects God's nature. And as someone who's a physician, I'm trying to avoid, because I think there's a lot of us in medicine right now, the sort of like Gnostic or even like Cartesian dualism that's infected medicine. And I do really think that the body actually is very important when we think about human dignity. You know, I mean, you mentioned like the Psalms, like thinking about like the psalmist saying that like, you know, we are fearfully and wonderfully made. Um, and so that gives us dignity, but also, and God, you know, knitted us together in our mother's womb, like knitted our physical beings together. Um, but also thinking about as Christians in the revelation of the incarnation, the incarnation changes everything because matter matters, yes, because it's created by God, but matter matters to us even more so because of the incarnation. Matter matters because Jesus Christ like had a body, like he has a body, like central to our faith are bodies. We're not gonna be these resurrected ghosts or spirits, but people, as we're told, you know, um in the gospel accounts, that we are going to be people with resurrected bodies. So when I think about the image of God, I didn't want to leave the material behind. You know, I think of the Genesis account that basically that, you know, the Lord gave his breath and you know, man became a living soul. So trying to avoid this dualism where we like maybe privilege the brain or the mind, um, and and where we think about, I I I have, again, I'm no theologian. I'm happy to take your critique on this. By more and more I'm thinking about the importance of the body in in Christian theology and actually in because of the revelation and the miracle of the incarnation. Um, so that's I think when I when I do that, I'm less likely to develop some kind of like dualist approach or sort of Gnostic approach to medicine. Um, because I think if if medicine doesn't have also a proper view of the body, then we're in trouble. And I think we've seen of late medicine not having a proper view of the body. There's a writer, Mary Harrington, and she calls medicine sort of adopting this idea of like meat lego Gnosticism, where we sort of de-privilege the body, privilege the mind, and the body's just meat legos, and we can just swap around Legos of meat because there's no meaning there at all. As Christians, like that's not how we should view the body. Like the body actually has an elevated significance because of the incarnation. So that's that's how I've been wrestling with the image of God, and especially just thinking about Colossians 1.15, that Jesus Christ is the perfect image of God, and he is obviously God who has taken on flesh. Um, so I I'm still trying to figure out, right, again, how to like do this in a way that isn't um dualistic, trying to really, you know, understand the image of God um in a way that doesn't, you know, de-privilege or sort of marginalize um matter or the body.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Wow. I I love your thoughts on that. Thank you so much for sharing. And I I'd love to have you share a uh a story. The story, so you at the Michigan event, you shared about this um person with Down syndrome. I believe he went into a hospital with like a a broken arm. Can you tell more about that story?

SPEAKER_06 39:10

Sure. So I have I have a really strong interest in something called narrative medicine, which is how in medicine we can reclaim the power of stories in patient care, education, and research, because stories are a powerful tool and they capture people's imagination and are sometimes, I think, often more powerful than just like your arguments can ever be. So I'm really interested in powerful stories that oftentimes highlight the issues that I care about. And so I had a piece published in the Wall Street Journal in April on physician-assisted suicide. And I'm uh I'm talking and give a lot of talks on physician-assisted suicide because um it's a it's a it's an issue I care deeply about. I do not think that physicians should ever aim directly at the death of one of their patients under their care and call that health care. And no coherent model of healthcare should I aim directly at the death of one of the patients under my care. So that applies to physician-assisted suicide. I do not, I think that practice violates the Hippocratic Oath of do no harm. So I've been speaking a lot about this topic. And so, in speaking about it, I've recognized that the other side that is pro-physician-assisted suicide in this country, their the name of that group is Compassion and Choices. They used to be called the Hemlock Society until they realized that that name needed a rebranding. So, Compassion and Choices, I've been able to go to some of their events and they always start their presentations with a story. And I was like, you know, I have all the arguments, and my arguments are pretty good, my thing, but like, I need some more stories. And, you know, sadly, there are many stories out there of people who have been the victims of throat culture and specifically this idea that not all people matter the same, particularly people with disabilities, really don't have the same type of right to life as other people. So the story I told at the summit that you heard is a true story. It's a story of a man. I usually show his picture. It's a picture I have of him and his mom and his dad. And it was a man who uh had an extra chromosome at 21, which is Castomi 21, otherwise known as Down syndrome. And his name was Aiden Poulton. So Mr. Poulton was a man who lived in the UK with his mom and dad. And a few years ago, Aiden fell and he broke his hip. And so he went to a place that he thought was safe and a place that he thought where people could help him. He went to a hospital. So he was admitted to the hospital and he was placed on an NPO order. NPO in medicine is a Latin abbreviation, but it means nothing by mouth. And they did that because they thought that he they didn't want him to have a full stomach because they were gonna have to probably intubate him to take him to the OR for this big surgery. But for some reason, you know, the surgery never happened. And for reasons that are very disturbing and unclear, the NPO order was never lifted. So he remained NPO, which means nothing by mouth, for like nine days. And this story has been reported in the press. And after nine days of like no food and no water, uh, Mr. Poulton died of dehydration. And I don't know exactly what happened, but no one thought to question the NPO order. And he couldn't advocate for himself because of his disability, and he died. And, you know, we know from research, there's an interesting study that sometimes I show when I'm talking about disability ethics and um ableism in medicine, that shows that physicians are ableists. And if you show a picture of someone with a disability to a physician, time and time again, the majority of the time, the physician will rate that person's quality of life lower than if you ask the person with a disability themselves. So when physicians don't really think that people with a disability have the same type of, you know, um, quality of life, or when we look at people who have, right, let's say advanced dementia or disability, and we don't really see them as being one of us because can we, because we've rooted dignity and capacity oftentimes, then those people are going to be at risk for not getting medications, you know, given to them in a way, or maybe resources will be allocated away from them, or decisions will be made and be like, you know, it's just better off that they just you put out of their suffering and and and they just are like, they they're let go. Um, so it's hard to know exactly what happened in Aiden's case, but I think his the the way the reason I talk about it is because, again, a lot of people haven't heard a story and it's atrocious. And it's a way for me to remind us that medicine has a lot of work to do and um repenting for the sinfulness of ableism and our participation in it. But also because in physician assisted suicide, we've been so thankful for those of us that are trying to not have this practice take over US healthcare. Um, we are very thankful for the disability community that has partnered with us. Actually, because it's a lot of folks in the disability community who are very fearful of physician assisted suicide because they know that they are already are like in a healthcare system that doesn't value their life the same. And they know that this sort of framing that like the choice to die will community um and they're they're they're fearful, you know, of their of their life being put into the hands of doctors who may suggest um actually killing them. Um, and and sort of Aidan's example is sort of part of that narrative that's true and horrific. So yeah, no, it's a very sad story. And there are countless stories like that. Um, I think that the ableism in medicine was very much unmasked during the pandemic when there were stories that came out of Italy and other countries where there were like in the open conversations about how people with disabilities, for example, regardless of medical, you know, status, just on the basis of them having disability or people just based on advanced age themselves would be denied a ventilator if ventilators were to become short, you know. So we have a lot of work to do. And I think stories can be a way to help point to people as to really like, what's at stake when we think about adopting, you know, a nationwide approach to physician-assisted suicide? Like, what will happen to our like brothers and sisters with disabilities or people who already we don't see as actually really being fully worthy of the protection of someone who's able-bodied or able, able-brained or whatever, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

unknown 45:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

I'm really glad you brought that up because that was something I wasn't aware of that, you know, that kind of situation was taking place. And so now, and that story made an impact on me. You know, I was, you know, it it stays in the back of my mind and it makes me think, you know, um, and it impacts how I look at things. And so I really appreciate you bringing that up. You also mentioned in your talk. Oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 45:52

I think it's important to bring up because again, like I think, you know, when we I live in Michigan, and um obviously Canada is right to the east and north of me here. You know, Canada has, you know, a totally should be what the experience in Canada has should be terrifying to us. So Canada has actually um euthanasia and physician assisted suicide legal there. And it is really the picture of the slippery slope there. So actually, Canada, um, one in 20 deaths now um in Canada is from euthanasia, which is about 5% of all their deaths. That should be like so alarming to us, you know, because again, once you put a law on the books, and because I've been more involved over the past couple of years in like this legal space, I realize, you know, that the law is a teacher and that the law used to tell us something about ourselves, right? Used to say, you know what, you are too holy to harm in some way. And it's wrong, it's flat out wrong to kill yourself or to kill somebody else. But now all of a sudden, if we have laws that say, like in states that legalize physician assisted suicide, actually, you know what? You know, there's really nothing special about you, and it's totally fine and maybe even preferable if you're not here anymore. That is going to affect the way that we see the value of human beings. Because, you know, most people are at least somewhat affected by what the law tells them. So the law is a teacher, you know. So if we have laws, for example, around abortion or physician assisted suicide that just make it sort of clear to the public, you know what, this group of Homo sapiens is not worthy of protection around their life. It shapes the way that we see the value of other people. It's like an anthropological teaching ground. And the law has a way of doing that. And I think stories are really a way to sort of bring that home.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

Yeah. And it, yeah, it's like in some countries, if someone's um marked or identified as having Down syndrome, the abortion levels are just catastrophic. Like, for example, in China, where you know, they it they just treat um, yeah, the the pregnancy situation is just so much different there. And you know, with the you know, the all the laws and rules about how many children someone can have or the types of, you know, and there's tests being done. Um so one of the things you also talked about in your talk in Michigan was on how pregnancy was being treated, like um, I believe it was um uh you know, essentially like you know, how pregnancy was being uh classified, or how they were like you know, making reasons for you know supporting abortion. Do you remember that portion of the talk? Or um it was um maybe not.

SPEAKER_06 48:30

I think it was a really good talk a couple months ago. No, no, no, no. Yeah, I think uh what I what have what I may have brought up at that point was a increasing narrative that I've seen in academic bioethics around infanticide. And infanticide basically is the uh, you know, is the act of killing infants either by active uh intent or by omission, for example, like you know, not providing an infant who was born with resuscitation uh uh efforts based on the fact, like let's say that you don't think that they should live. If you, you know, have a baby, for example, some bioethicists argue if you if you have a baby and you didn't realize, for example, that they had Down syndrome on prenatal testing and you have this baby and you're like, wait a minute, I didn't like agree to this. Um, some people call it like an afterbirth abortion, that the mother should have the right to like direct the medical team to not resuscitate that baby and like let that baby die. I mean, that's basically infanticide by omission. So um, you know, there's been some controversy too about this topic about, you know, um survivors of abortion, like babies who uh, you know, abortion was attempted, but then the baby basically is born and is actually alive. But again, if the if the intent basically of the mother was like, you know, Charlie Cimosi has written a powerful piece in public discourse that's called something like abortion is the right to a dead baby. Um, if that person, if that mother is like, you know what, I didn't, I came in here for this abortion, I'm not leaving here with a with a live child, some bioethicists believe actually that that baby should be able to um not be resuscitated and allowed uh, you know, and sort of forced to die, even after even after they're born alive after an abortion. There's been various attempts by various politicians to pass uh, you know, born alive survivors protection acts, which have not been able to be successfully defended. Um but anyway, I think I talked about that and I showed a uh people think it's fake, but it's actually a picture of an academic article that was published in a major bioethics journal a few years ago arguing for infanticide, not just, you know, uh in in in babies who have disabilities, but for healthy babies where the mothers did not um really did haven't consented to be really a mother. And it's really alarming, again, because then if youth and in the and I I use that piece because in the piece, the authors who are bioethicists, again, make my point for me that we don't see all members of Homo sapiens as having inherent worth and the viable ethenium. And they say in the piece something like these aren't persons, these babies aren't persons, they're potential persons. And potential persons, they would say, do not have the same type of rights and uh belonging in our moral community as actual persons. So they would say, like, the mom is an actual person, the fetus or even the one-day-old baby is a potential person. And potential persons, they would say, have no claim, actually, right, on us. Yeah, so this is the piece after birth abortion. Why should the baby live? So it's a really, really alarming piece, right? Killing a newborn should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled. So that's their, that's the argument of these bioethicists. Um, and again, this is the problem when again, we don't see all members of Homo sapiens as having inherent worth and a viable dignity. So I sometimes when I talk about this piece, I talk about the work of Peter Singer, who's a philosopher and an ethicist. And he says actually that there are human beings and that there are persons. And he does not think about those two groups as being the same. He will say actually that there are like human non-persons. And he'll say, you know what, I grant you, you know, based on science, that like, you know, a fetus or an embryo or a zygote or even a two-week-old baby is a human being. They're a member of Homo sapiens, but they're not persons. And he would say, again, personhood is only granted if you have certain attributes, like, you know, rationality, ability to make goals for yourself, uh, level of agency. And again, not all of us have those in the same amount. And those traits are often accidental. So he would say, people with late-stage dementia are not persons, infants are not persons, uh, you know, uh, embryos are not persons. So again, those folks, he would say, don't have the same rights or um shouldn't have the same resources dedicated to them as actually persons. And again, when you set up these tiers of human dignity, this is exactly what you get. And this to me, this is a this is a this is a justice issue for our members of homeless avians who deserve uh to be defended um for their right to life.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

Wow. So one of the questions I like to ask during these podcasts is can you share more about where you've seen God's fingerprints in your story? I know you shared about, you know, feeling like you are protected with the peace of God. What other story comes to mind? Um you know, where God, you know, you see God really um, you know, his presence or um, you know, see the results of God being part of, you know, protecting you or or guiding you.

SPEAKER_06 54:17

This one state that I mentioned when I was flying out to defend abortion restrictions in this big state case. I couldn't believe it, you know, this this happens, but this like was very dramatic. I was supposed to testify like on a Thursday, I think, and I was trying to fly out on Wednesday morning so I could get to the state, which was in a different time zone, and like prep with my team and all that. And the flight kept getting delayed and kept getting delayed and kept, and I was like, oh my gosh. And finally it was like 10:30, and it was like gonna be the last flight out of Detroit to the state. And if I couldn't get there, I wouldn't be able to testify. And then we were on the plane, and I was like, oh my gosh, because I know how this goes, you know? And then sure enough, they're like team command, they're like, Yeah, we finally, you know, have like a pilot, but like the team has totally timed out because, you know, their their hours are up. And I was like, oh my gosh, like I'm not gonna be able to get there. And I was just praying, and actually, the guy next to me who was an RV salesperson who was from the state, he was also praying, and people knew everywhere. And I was like, Oh my goodness. And they were like, Well, we might be able to, like, you know, there's a pilot landing over in Concourse C, and he just found in from Thailand, but he might be able to like switch with this other thing. And I was like, and I prayed and I sent out my like into my network. I'm like, please pray. And like everybody was like, the guy in the RV guy next to me was like, I've been here before. We're we're like not taken. This is not going. I was like, oh my goodness. And we were able to leave. Um, and again, like, could just be the uh just a wonderful treat that we were able to leave. But honestly, like I really felt the power of prayer there. Um, during this case that I talked about, it was really uh unusual because the I was sitting next to the judge, and the judge basically during this testimony, and I kept being cut off by the obviously the other side. They didn't let me really sort of top in a way that would have, you know, been able to get a lot of the arguments I had out because that was their strategy. And it was so frustrating. But actually, the judge at one point turned to me and he asked me a specific question, and the other side couldn't sort of, you know, object because this is the judge. And I just was like, Lord, I have like two minutes, like, what am I gonna say? And I asked the judge, I was like, Your Honor, can I expand a little bit upon your question so I could get a little bit more narrative in? And I was able to say things to him that even though we ended up losing that case, I'm just very thankful that I was able to witness actually to the truth of our prenatal brothers and sisters and their dignity to him. And I felt like that was like a God-given moment. Um, I've had situations too at the university that I feel like doors have been opened to me with connections or people have sort of come into my path on various travels across the country. I give talks across North America about various things where people have been sent to me at times where I felt very discouraged. And someone's like, you know, I don't really know you, but like I just had this like sense that I needed to come up to you and share with you this like scripture verse or whatever. And it was totally something that like I just didn't think exactly like what I like needed to hear. And I'm like, there is no way that that's just a coincidence, right? So so many situations like that, um, where you're just like, never in a million years would this one person on this airplane say this one thing to me, and they just felt like moved to say it. And it was like totally the thing that I needed to hear, you know? So things like that that just are like totally bizarre. And my scientific brain wants to be like, well, that's just you know a weird coincidence. But the more that happens, you're like, you know what? God is real. And I'm so thankful for that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:58

Well, that's awesome. Thank you for sharing. Um, so the primary audience of this podcast is pregnancy clinic leadership or pro-life leaders. Um, would you share something encouraging to pregnancy clinic leadership or pro-life leaders?

SPEAKER_06 58:14

Yeah, I think the most encouraging thing that I've witnessed in this work over the past few years has been the enthusiasm that I've received talking about abortion with young people, particularly young men. So actually it was weird. I was uh giving a talk, I was asked to give a talk. I won't say the name of the school, but um at a private Catholic boarding school in another state a couple of years ago. And it's like this very like uh, you know, expensive, wealthy, you know, Catholic boarding school. And I wasn't even again even sure like why I was asked to come to the school, honestly. But I was asked to come to the school and like give like all school assembly to co-it's high school. And I was like, can I talk about human dignity? And they were like, sure. And so, of course, because it's just the way that these are sort of Trojan Trojan horse talks go, I of course talked about human dignity, but of course, you know, brought up that the topic of um abortion and physician assisted suicide as like this justice issue and put all my best natural law arguments around these topics. And it was interesting because my name was sort of public because I had been through this white coat ceremony, cancellation attempt. Some of the girls actually in the audience, I had to be there because it was a law school assembly, but they protested my talk and they just covered their arms like an ex and they closed their eyes and they refused to listen. And again, that's totally their right to do that, but it was um interesting. Um, but there were so many people in the audience, um, especially particularly um um some minoritized students and young men who were like locked in. And so after my talk, I was leaving because I actually had to get to the airport to fly home. And there was a group of seven young men, and they staffed me in the hall. And they were like, my gosh, like that was like such a great talk. And like, uh, what would you say for this or that? And we just had this like apologetics conversation. Like, what do you what do you say to people who say actually that like restricting abortion is racist or it hurts one of these health outcomes, or what do you say about, and we just talked and talked and talked. And I was looking at my watch and I was like, I'm gonna miss my flight. And I said, you know what? I thought, if I miss my flight, this is absolutely something worth missing my flight over. And we talked and talked and talked and talked, and they were like so enthusiastic. And then the my sort of handler came over and said, Kristen, like, we gotta go. And I'm like, we well, I I probably already missed my flight because I'm, you know, this is like sort of in a big metropolitan city, but I was like, okay. And by some miracle, the cab driver was able to get me to my flight at a time. I still made it home. And in travel since that time, I can't tell you how many students, or even students who have like no religious background, who are like talking to me and I'm like, you know, how do you rule human dignity? And they're like, Well, I think they're reading human dignity based on who like loves the person. I'm like, well, what if someone has anyone that loves them? Or what if someone has more people that love them than other people? Do they matter more? They're like, huh. I'm like, well, I think people matter because of what contributions they've made to society, kids will tell me. Or I'll say, Well, what if someone who hasn't made the type of contributions you're talking about because they're in a wheelchair or have superposing? Do they not matter at all? And they're like, huh. And they're really interested. They don't like the way that like their concept of human dignity aligns with their commitment to justice. And they're they're tired of that, um, I would say that incoherence. And they want to see things in a different way. And they're really interested in having these conversations because they have a huge justice orientation, but they don't want to then like have incoherence and be in unjust in the way they think about human dignity or abortion or physician assisted suicide. So they they really are like, I've been so encouraged actually by the enthusiasm of young people. And I just want to encourage the people who are listening that like the pro-life movement cannot go forward without the presence of men. Um, we need young men. I just was having a talk with a cab driver the other day on a when I was coming back from a trip. And he was like, he's like, he's like, Why do you come here? I'm like, oh, I talk about abortion biomethysis. He's like, oh, I can't say anything about abortion because I'm a man. And I was like, I know you've been told that actually, but like, here's what my arguments to that would be. So I'm encouraged by people's commitment to justice, their willingness to talk about these things, more so than I would say probably the older generation or the boomers who have their mind made up and they're not going to hear about it. Young people are open and willing and they're enthusiastic and they want to be just in the way they approach things. And a really a big spike of enthusiasm, I want to say, encouragement to the young men. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:47

Wow. So I was talking with a gentleman at the Michigan conference, and I was asking, I asked a lot of people this question of like, you know, what's the greatest need for the pro-life movement? You know, you know, from your opinion. And one person told me to have um for training for physicians to include human dignity as a core component. What are your thoughts on, you know, where human dignity is being weaved in today, or where, you know, what would that look like for that to be weaved in better into physician training and education?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:21

Yeah, so I do, again, that's like it's my it's my uh favorite topic to talk about. So I I I I love that answer, obviously. I think it's interesting. I again I talk to a lot of medical people across the country, and I'll ask, you know, medical students, you know, tell me about the medical school course that you had on what is a person or what is a human being. And they're like, I've never had such a course. And I was like, don't you find that odd that like, you know, medicine is like a vocation dedicated towards uh aiding and assisting and helping human beings, but like there's no course actually on what a human being, like we have assumptions, I think, about what human beings are, but like not everybody honestly thinks that a person and the and human being are the same terms. Like, like we just talked about Peter Singer. Um, it's funny, over I just had a student recently tell me they had had a uh a talk on this, and it was actually a DO student from an osteopathic school. And she was the first person in like seven years I've ever heard actually had a course on like what is a person, because a person's like it's a metaphysical concept, and medicine doesn't engage metaphysics well. But um, they medical schools do have a lot of talks, obviously, about uh social determinants of health, um, health disparities, um, ethics, equity, that type of thing, systemic racism, right? Um, and sometimes we will speak around these topics, but medicine doesn't like to engage that topic head on. Because if you do, you're gonna start to engage, you know, thick moral concepts. Um, and I think that's not medicine's love language. So I think it's a huge gaping hole in medical education because it again, the way we see human beings matters because it will it will affect the way as physicians we offer certain resources to people or not, or what we advocate for, what we might actually consider to be healthcare practices. So I think the topic needs to be engaged because literally people's lives are at stake and the data shows that we're ableists and ageists and so not something has to be a corrective here. Um, but again, I think I understand why they're hesitant to do so. So, yes, and that would be great to incorporate that. I do, uh, I run again a program on medicine and religion, and we engage these topics head-on with our students. We have actually student fellows, we actually have an elective on medicine and religion spirituality where we engage this. Again, not we're not telling the students how to think, but we're giving them opportunities to think about how do they root human dignity and trying to show that sometimes the systems that they're using actually set up tiers of human dignity just to put a little splinter in their mind to like, maybe I am thinking about this in a way that actually perpetuates injustice and. I think this is a different way myself and my colleagues who come from various religious traditions will be like, Well, this is how we come to understanding this to you. But just give you a particularity of what this looks like. Trying to have conversations, asking questions about people that typically have assumptions about this. And making things in medical education curriculum, even though it would be uncomfortable to do to try to like again have people explore these topics.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

Um is there anything you would like, you know, someone who's listening to this podcast and you're if there would be an opportunity for you to want to hear from someone listening, what question would you want answered, or what kind of story would you like to hear if someone was to reach out? You know, like you know, what would be something interesting for you to, you know, hear from someone listening to this podcast?

SPEAKER_06 1:06:58

I mean, I'm always interested. The question that I have that I've been asked before and I I like to hear from people is sometimes people will ask me on various debates or panels or whatever when I speak about abortion in particular, people say, you know, what is your you know, what is the end game of all of this? You know, is your end game that you would want, you know, basically especially since the opposition the opposition has come down, like what is the end game, you know? And what I always say, which is I think is really true, is this, is that, you know, my hope would be that someday, you know, it wouldn't matter how absolutely crazy the laws were or are that it wouldn't matter because abortion would be unthinkable. You know, how can we get abortion to be unthinkable? And that is something in that again because it's been sort of again taken a little bit out of the political space because of jobs and some of these states don't have constitutional members of mission does for abortion to be a constitutional right. I'm not saying that it it's not important to work through the law and to work through advocacy, but it's really gonna be a battle that's one in hearts and minds. How do we do that well? And how do we how do we scale that? How do we like systematize that? What are there some best practices? How are people how are people doing that? How are people trying to make abortion unthinkable? What are the avenues in which we can make that happen? That to me is like I would love to hear from people about how we can do that better.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

That's good. So yeah, for those who are listening, if you have ideas that you'd like to share, yeah, please reach out to the pod uh the contact info connected to the podcast, and I'll be glad to share that with Kristen and we'll explore um d diving deeper into how to make abortion unthinkable and explore those different ideas and that that sphere of that sphere of ideas.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:53

Um Kristen, I might are you gonna put my are you gonna please feel free to put my contact information if they're like our show notes. But yeah, I'm on Twitter at at HSR Director because HSR is healthcare following religion. HSR director, yeah, my email is publicly available to you. I'm happy to talk to anybody who has questions or thoughts or concerns because people have been so kind, important to me over the years to help me be informed that uh pro-lifers are people who are choosing both, or choosing mom and baby. And we need to think about, yes, of course, like being able to protect the most vulnerable lives in society, such as our prenatal brothers and sisters, and also to support mothers, um, because oftentimes again, abortion isn't a choice, and there's so much work to do to make sure that our society has is capacious enough to be able to sort of welcome both mom and baby together.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

That's good. So, well, Kristen, and as we wrap things up, would you close out this podcast with a prayer? Maybe a prayer for making abortion unthinkable and inviting and we'll invite those who are listening to join in.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:58

Heavenly Father and Lord Jesus Christ. Um we're so thankful for this time together and for bringing um Jacob uh to the talk and for me to be able to be at the talk for us to meet and then for this time to uh come together, Lord. Um we're thankful for the fellowship that we find uh in you and through your people in the church. And we pray in a particular way, Lord, for the people who might be listening to this podcast, Lord. The people who um again, despite despite their their better judgment, Lord, uh, but because of your guiding hand and love, have decided to commit uh time and effort and treasure to uh protection of the most vulnerable um and their mothers and fathers and families, Lord. Um the family is your is your beautiful design, Lord, and like anything that's a beautiful Lord, we know that it's under attack. Um and you've given us thank God uh the the this this this current cultural moment, Lord, to be able to defend your word and your truth and your people. And let us have moral courage uh to be able to do this. Um and courage, uh, of course, Lord, it's gonna come from you, but let us have brothers and sisters who um stand in front of us, behind us, and beside us, Lord, to be able to not feel like we're doing this alone. Uh Lord, we ask you for a special prayer of protection ahead around those who do pro-life work, Lord, for their safety and for their families and for their jobs, Lord. And we just pray uh for for um revelation, Lord, about um how to make abortion unthinkable. And we pray for opportunities, Lord, for conversations on airplanes and and with our family and in the cab and and Uber, Lord, uh to be able to one by one Lord uh to be able to uh proclaim uh the truth about abortion. And Lord, we know you give the increase. Um and we uh pray in a special way for those feeling discouraged, Lord. There are so many things I think that are discouraging right now. But again, we know how the story ends, Lord. We we we we have the end of the story and we see you standing in your glorified resurrected body, Lord. And we're so thankful for that vision, Lord, and we look forward to the beauty of a vision someday and we're standing with you face to face where you will wipe away every tear. And all these things we give you thanks and praise, Lord. We love you. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:38

Early on in the morning, I wake up to the warning that there are angels standing by my eyes. Latinum clouds open up eye. See your face in the twilight, peaceful glow in your cosmic eyes and sometimes my desire drags me into the fire, climbing higher night. Up at the top of my ladder, I just keep going better till you show me where I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:51

I got training out screening and the boy singing on the best time, I got the princess, I've got it, y'all gonna start it by still with that, and that's me and I'm gonna do it.