SPEAKER_02 4:19

Well, welcome to the ProLife Team Podcast. I'm Jacob, and I'm here with Robin, and today we get to learn about Robin's new book. So, Robin, uh tell us about yourself and your new book.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

Well, I've been on the ProLife Team podcast before, and I'm so grateful for the opportunity to come on here again. I had no idea that I would write a book. I had no idea I would become a leadership coach. I lived inside of Pregnancy Center Land for over 23 years, running three different pregnancy centers. So I really do understand that world of pregnancy center ministry. And uh I remember many years ago I took a sabbatical, my one and only sabbatical. The board was so gracious to give that to me. And it was during that sabbatical I heard God starting to woo me away. Right. I knew I would be leaving. I just didn't know how soon. So when I came back from sabbatical, I engaged the board and I said, Okay, we have some work to do because I'm gonna be leaving. And there was momentary shock and surprise. And I said, I'm not leaving right away. I just want to make sure and finish well. Because my coach, and I had three different coaches over my time as a leader, highly recommended. One of my coaches said to me that in his estimation, only about 10% of ministry leaders finish well. And when I say finish well, I mean, what does that mean? It means you can walk away from the center handing that baton off without even a blip on the screen. So everything just continues functioning. That new leader doesn't need to step in and do a whole bunch of emergency work or deal with a lot of problems. Um, so that's what finish well to me means. And we went through a journey at this pregnancy center. I had a really good handoff, walked away well. And uh please know that as an older white extroverted woman, I handed off to a 31-year-old introverted male. So we had a very uh very diverse uh handoff. We're very different, but it still worked really well. But it wasn't without its work. And what I have found since I have been a leadership coach for the last almost nine years, that God has taken me graciously down this journey where succession planning really is probably the number one thing that I do and that I offer. And God has given me wisdom in this area to help other ministry leaders finish well. And that leads to the book that I've written. It's called Finish Well, Succession Planning for the Ministry You Love. And that's what I think we find within Pregnancy Center Land are leaders who have such a deep love for this ministry. And sometimes that deep love leads to things like maybe the ministry becomes an idol, like it did for me at times. At times I put that ministry even before the Lord and my own family. And it also makes it really difficult to leave. And I have uh worked in this realm for many years, and I'm just so excited to announce that the book is gonna be released on October 1st. And I'm gonna be doing some Facebook promotion with the help of iRapture, and I'm just excited for the journey ahead, Jacob.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Oh, this is good. Um, so I've got a couple questions. Um does pregnancy clinic pregnancy clinic leadership change? Um, and and I'll I'll try and answer it first, then I'll let you uh but I think it changes every four to twelve years. Um that seems like that's my estimate. And in some groups, in some scenarios, I've seen leadership change every year uh for a few for several leaders in a row. And so four might be good in that situation. But what are your thoughts on like the frequency in which leadership changes and how might coaching support longevity so we don't need to do so you know succession planning so often? Or how would that yeah?

SPEAKER_03 8:57

Yeah, in the world of pregnancy centers, if you're not familiar with it, especially if you come from the outside, right? You come from uh an executive corporate environment and you come into pregnancy center land, it can be quite overwhelming. And even difficult to know where to turn. Heartbeat, CareNet, NIFLA, there's all these different organizations, there's um, and there's so many different ways to market and so many philosophical differences. So, how do you navigate all that? And what I have found, especially for a new leader, even if it's someone who has been brought up from within a ministry and now all of a sudden they're this leader, what happens is there's an amount of overwhelm and a need to put that mask on, right? They put the mask on like they know what they're doing, but internally inside of their head, they're really struggling. And sometimes I know for myself leading a medical clinic, I it felt like I was an actor on a stage, to be really honest, saying, you know, other people, I they need to to think that I know what I'm doing, but internally I'm not sure. And in that situation, it's difficult for that leader to go to their board because the board is their boss and they want the boss to really have confidence in them. And they shouldn't go to their staff to talk about any of their issues because they're their boss, which can lead to its own level of issues, and they shouldn't be burdening family and friends who don't fully understand. That's the value of a coach. And the first coach that I had essentially saved me from quitting. I was at such an extreme level of burnout, which is the second thing that I think is my secondary focus. So when I say all of that, some of these leaders that step in, if they step into a mess, either a staff mess or a board mess or an organizational structure mess, it's really difficult to be there long term and to be successful. So I have seen um either those leaders who come in uh after a succession plan, and now somebody has come in and they just don't have the support they need, so they don't last very long. But on the other side, you have founders who have done such a spectacular job at creating a pregnancy center. They've been there for 30, 35 years, and um, they're just there's such a level of fear of letting go of that ministry because they're afraid of what's going to happen. So maybe they linger too long out of just that uncertainty of what it's going to look like when they leave. The other piece of what I see is uh too many times within pregnancy center land, there's such a poverty mindset that there's not um this retirement fund that somebody else may have. And so many leaders hold on sometimes too long because they need that paycheck. And then I've seen the ministry itself begin to suffer because of that uh inability to have something to live and survive on after they leave. So the question was, you know, what is my estimate of how long they're staying? I've seen them stay as as little as a year, but uh for them to stay longer than 12 years is not very common. So I think you're kind of right in there.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Yeah, and I it's yeah, so what I'm hearing is if someone, if there's a pattern of leadership changing every year, it's probably the environment they're in, the lack of a coach, or there's outside forces that are making it extra difficult to remain, or maybe the wrong person was hired, but it's probably more like the it's just a bad environment to flip or to clean up.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

And so maybe there's yeah, the value of a coach really is so my focus, what God has called me to do, is to support that executive director or CEO. I'm not there necessarily to support the whole ministry because if we have a stronger leader who has that confidence, you're gonna have a stronger ministry, which means you're gonna be more effective in saving and changing lives. So that is my primary focus, is for that person. And what I do is as they share with me, we invite God into the process. I don't know what they need. Sometimes it seems pretty clear, but God knows what they need. And I want to make sure and bring God into whatever difficult situation is going on. And that's the beauty of what I see and get to do every day.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

Oh, that's really good. So I want to go back. So based on what you just said, and based on what you said at the beginning, where the ministry can become like an idol that that um intercepts a conversation that my wife and I had during marriage counseling this last week. And that was that iRapch.com could be an idol if I don't seek God's direction and voice in what we do on a regular basis. And so it's an idol if I just simply push on my own without seeking God, and it's not an idol if God is weaved in or Jesus is weaved in to decisions and work. And so how would you reflect on that concept of ministry being an idol versus not being an idol? And and and how would you, yeah, and based on how my the pastor at my church framed it, whether God is in every decision/slash day makes a difference on whether it's an idol or not.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

Yeah, um, I mean, I can speak to that personally. I went through some seasons where when I really was honest with my coach when the questions were answered, um, I had all my priorities um backwards and upside down. So um it's just something that when this happens, because you're trying to save lives of unborn children, it feels so vital and it's really critical to what's going on. And it feels more important than sitting and having a date night with your husband or spending and hanging out with the Lord, even. There were times and seasons I went through where my quiet time and personal time with the Lord was not very good because I had to hurry and get to the office. Um, and so when things get flipped like that, the value of a coach is helping a leader learn to set those goals and priorities for themselves and the boundaries that will protect their heart, mind, and soul. Because what happens uh to have that outside voice, completely outside your scope of your life that can hold you accountable to different levels can be beautiful, but it can also be that iron sharpening iron type of a thing that happens. But it's really easy to flip and to make that pregnancy center seem more important. Plus, the other piece of this, when it comes to saving a life of a child, um, we feel like the burden is on us. So many centers even still will have a phone that's answered 24-7 and somebody that has to answer those calls. But may I gently remind that God is the one who saves the life that He will use us, but if we're saving lives to the expense of taking care of our own heart and soul, I don't think that's pleasing the Lord. And that's a difficult thing sometimes to admit to. Um, and to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, I'm I um yeah, I I I like to work. And so I often will work in even without seeking God's direction and voice, very often. Um, and so it's a good reminder. Like that's a reminder that I would enjoy hearing daily, weekly, all of the above, because it's such an important part to do to have the work be in line with God's direction and not simply to complete projects.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

Yeah, well, you're talking to the to-do list project queen. You know, I mean, uh work is it feels very fulfilling. Um, but the reality is we must learn how to rest. I mean, Jesus says the perfect example at the busiest height of his ministry, he's like, nope, I'm out of here. Um, when people were clamoring for his attention, he uh was like, nope, nothing's more important than that time with the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Yeah, so some of the things that my pastor has told me is, you know, if you don't answer those emails today, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? And is that okay? And can you be okay with that? And things, things along that line of you know, letting it sit there, not getting it done immediately. And and I have a really hard time complying with that pastoral advice. Like I just simply run a zero inbox and it's hard for me to do it.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

For anybody, anybody who's listening, believe it or not, you can parent your email. I know some people they only look at their email a couple times a day and then they close it. They don't have it on their phones because what's happened in our culture is email has turned into instant messenger. Like, okay, I'm sending you an email, okay, where's the response? Right, I'm looking for it immediately. And so it's really important, even within your ministry or your business, to say, okay, this is the structure. If I need you immediately, I'm gonna call you. If I need a pretty quick response, I'm gonna text you. If you use some type of one of those, you know, productive online programs. I never used one, but I know there's a lot of them out there. Or if I email you, I expect to hear from you in 24 to 48 hours, right? Um, so not having your email lead your life because as soon as we look at our email, we know we're gonna be spun off and go down all the rabbit trails and it it leaves that important thing that really needs to get to be done, not done. And that's what happens with succession. So I've talked to so many leaders, they know they need to work on succession planning, but they know it's important, but it keeps getting pushed to the corner of the desk over and over and over until their health issue becomes their succession plan. All of a sudden they're gone and nobody's ready. So this is part of the premise of this book is whether you're gonna leave in six months or 10 years to talk about succession now because you have no idea the number of your days and how long you'll be around. And if you can get on top of it, and the premise of the book, it really talks about four areas where you need to focus as a ministry leader. And the first one is on yourself. There's a lot of work that needs to be done inside of yourself before you leave. What are you gonna be going to? What are you going to be doing? How are you going to deal with the grief and the loneliness and so many pieces that leaders don't think about? Um, and the second piece is you have to prepare your staff. How are you going to prepare your staff and make succession just a regular word that you talk about? You have to prepare the board, which is its own separate issue. I did just release a board training inside of a Brighthorse for ministries, and that's really helpful. But then you have the piece of strengthening the organizational structure itself. So what the ministry is standing on, what about your policies? What about your training? How are you um vetting and onboarding people and making sure you're bringing strength, spiritual strength into the ministry? There's so much to this. And what's really cool about how I've written the book is you start off by doing a survey. It's not a book you have to read from front to back or in a specific order. Like if you take this survey and you realize your board is your greatest issue, start at that chapter. If you realize you have staff issues, I always say, but please, please, please hear me. If you have issues on your staff or on your team, please don't leave that mess for your successor. Deal with it ahead of time. Time. And the way that I really describe this, if you as a leader have one particular individual or maybe two, and your mind, your mental energy keeps going towards that person over and over and over. Like maybe they're taking up 25 to 30 percent of your mental space. Something needs to change. Either they need to change or they need to be removed. And um, you just don't want to leave messes for your successor. And that comes in all areas. And the more you can start focusing on it and embrace the word succession and start planning for it, God can do beautiful things. And I've seen some beautiful handoffs, and I have seen some really bad handoffs.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

All right. I've got some good questions for you. So one question. Um, so this one's a personal question for myself. How might I support leaders who are retiring? Because sometimes I'll hear, and just today I got an email or yesterday, I got an email from someone retiring in a month. And and they're and they're we're um I'm meeting with the the director who's on the way out and the new director that's on the way in. And so how could I support teams that are in that transition as an outside player, not knowing if they work through a workbook or or book such as yours? How might I support that leadership handoff?

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Yeah, you have no, you on your end, and that's a really great question, Jacob, because you have no idea what's happened on their end. They may have had a beautiful um transition and prepared for succession. They might not. I think the only thing that you can do, Jacob, is ask, how can I be most helpful for you? I think that would be such a beautiful question to ask the new person. Thank the outgoing person. Um ask the new one, how can I be most helpful for you? And encourage them to get a coach. I am not self-promoting myself. There are other coaches, but have a mentor, have um someone that you can can talk to because that new person can't and really shouldn't go to the one that's leaving. So who are who are they who are they talking to? Um, so get encourage them to get the support they need, especially if you see any issues or any frustrations on their part. Otherwise, you don't know unless you ask questions. That's another thing Jesus did. He asked beautiful questions.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Yeah, he definitely asked good questions that would direct people and help them see. So one of the things you said was to start at the greatest need chapter. Can you list out the chapters in your book?

SPEAKER_03 24:53

I don't have them all. I don't have them all memorized, but I do in the book in the book, I do um cover 12 steps to take throughout the book. So that's something that I can share. Um, the first step is individual preparation as far as talking about succession, um, discerning how do you discern when it's time to leave. That's another whole part of the book. Trying to figure out who should come next because um I had certain skills and strengths and weaknesses. I kind of had an idea what the what the ministry needed beyond me to take it to another level. And so thought process went into that. There's also a lot of prayer and faith that has to happen. So that's all step number one is the first part of preparing yourself. The second part of preparing yourself is that individual preparation, which is focusing on yourself in your own heart. I had no idea the level of loneliness and the level of grief that I would experience after leaving. So it's really important to take the time to really think through what are you gonna do? What are those things that are life-giving that you can fill your time with after you leave? And I also tell everybody to incorporate time because you have no idea how burned out your heart and soul really are after you leave. You need a season of rest. Um, you want to uh one of the best things that has um, and I'll cover, I'll try to cover those exact 12 things in a minute, but one of the the number one most helpful items that any of my clients have had with any of the things that I have done on succession planning is the need to create a things I do document, is what I called it, really fancy. Um, it's called a knowledge transfer document or a standard operating procedure or an operations manual. But it's important for each leader to capture what they do beyond a job description on a daily basis, weekly basis, monthly, annually, what are those things they do? When do they do them? To add a calendar to it. It's really important to do that. Um, but beyond that, when you're getting ready to leave, letting go of this beloved ministry calling and identity, my pregnancy center um leadership uh role became my identity. Everywhere I went in our town, which is about 35,000, I was known as the pregnancy center leader. And almost nine years later, I still get asked how the pregnancy center is doing, because that was an identity, and that was I had to learn a new identity for myself. God had um a purpose for your life, but many different paths you can take along your life to fulfill those purposes. So I had to step into a different calling. Um, so those are the things with individual preparation. It's talk about it, discern when it's time, who should come next, um, having prayer and faith, focusing on yourself and your heart, that things I do, letting go of a beloved ministry. So beyond yourself, you have to begin to prepare the organization. And that means creating that solid organizational structure, um, finding and keeping great staff is part of that. Preparing for that incoming successor, what are the things you will do to make it easier for them? Creating a strategic plan, painting a clear financial picture. There's just a lot of things that that go into that um entire process. Um, the book goes into everything in such greater detail, even how to build a stronger board, how do you get your board more involved? So the greatest thing that God showed me when I took that sabbatical is that I was the center of the ministry. Everything revolved around me. I didn't have a huge ministry, but I did have, I think, 11 paid staff, probably five or six full-time and some part-time, but everything revolved around me. I um ran everything. I ran the board. I was the strategic vision. I did everything. And God clearly showed me that if I didn't figure out how to get out of that swirling, busy middle, that my successor would not succeed. And so that was a pretty clear warning sign that I needed to um figure out how to not have everything uh revolve around me. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah. That does make sense. So, and it sounds like this book is ideally for the executive director of a pregnancy clinic. Um, at least that's for our content. Is it is this book written for pregnancy clinics or for nonprofits in general?

SPEAKER_03 30:16

It's actually written for any ministry leader. What I found when I started down the path is there were not very many books on succession planning for small to mid-size ministries. There were a lot of books focused more on churches or maybe really large businesses or ministries, but not as much for the small to mid-size. Now, a lot of the things in this book are gonna apply for large-scale ministries as well. And of course, you're never gonna find one book that's gonna do everything. The reason this is pregnancy center, why I'm pushing it to pregnancy centers, is because throughout the book, I use my own example and my own journey. But the book itself has been written for any ministry leader. So any gospel rescue mission or uh, you know, whatever it could be. Um that's how it's been written.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

What about um those who happen to be in a second chair, meaning they're they're they're in a leadership role below the first chair, the ED.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

Well, so the reality is, and I say this in the book, succession is for everybody inside your ministry, right? Even the board members, they should always be thinking about who comes next and how are we bringing them in, and how are we going to help them be successful, and how are we gonna vet them to make sure they're solid before coming in. So, yes, this would also be for a second chair, especially if that's someone who is being considered to come into the role. Um, any board members who are listening, this would be a great book to give to your executive director and your board members to have everybody read it and understand, knowing that not every word in this book is gonna apply to everybody, but there will be helpful things in this book for any ministry leader who's listening.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Oh, that's good. So when is this book gonna be available for purchase or is it already available? I don't even know.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

No, it's being released on October 1st. I don't yet have um a pre-order date. My recommendation is to follow me on social media. Um, find uh Robin, I think it's under Robin Duell Fuller, is my personal or Bloom coaching with Robin Fuller. You can look there and find my Bloom coaching page on Facebook. I'm also on LinkedIn. So if you follow either one of those, we will be offering those links as soon as we have them. You can also go to Robin Fuller.coach slash book. That is a web landing page that isn't, it's not live today on the day we're recording, but on the day that someone listens to this, that is probably live. You can put your email in there and we'll let you know as soon as the book is available. Um, but we're pretty excited for this because when it comes to the world of succession planning, there aren't enough books on this topic.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Awesome. So, so Robin, where where in scripture did you find inspiration for this secession planning um work or this advice, this book writing? You know, what Bible passage really speaks to you in and uh supporting this effort you put in?

SPEAKER_03 33:40

Yeah, well, there's a couple different ones. You've got uh Moses to Joshua, which is a beautiful picture of transition and a healthy one and good communication all the way through. And then you have King David and kind of uh the mess that happened there with all of his sons and the lack of clarity and what that can be. You also have Elijah to Elisha and the beauty there that happened. So those are three uh pictures of transition, both good and maybe not as healthy. Even with Moses, you have the time as a leader when Moses was trying to do everything and Jethro comes in and says, Moses, you need help. And part of succession planning to make it successful. The reason why you write everything down in this things I do document is not to just note everything you're doing, but to put the thought into what are the things I should be doing and what are the things I should hand off. When I did this exercise, I realized no one person could do everything I was doing. And so uh with conversations with the board, we broke my position up into two positions because I wanted my successor to be successful. And so documenting what you do as Moses was doing too much, most of the leaders listening, if they're honest, are doing too much. And it takes faith to hire another position. Where's the money gonna come from? But every time my board took those steps of faith to hire someone, God always came through. That's just the kind of God we serve, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Oh, that's good. So when someone makes their succession plan, is there a value or an opportunity for that to be shared with other organizations that might benchmark parts of it or or may learn from that? Like, is it worth sharing that plan with other groups in the hopes that it may help, or is every organization so unique that they really just need to build their own succession plan?

SPEAKER_03 35:57

Well, so a couple different things. I have led, um I just formed my 14th succession planning mastermind group. If you go to my website, robinfuller.coach, you can see the tab there. But this is something that's been the most helpful thing I have done for everybody. You want to get started, join a group. It's an inexpensive way to start the process just once a month and really start um down that road. What's exciting is I'm gonna be able to build this uh this group now around my own book. I've used somebody else's book before and tried to make it work, but I'm gonna be changing that whole format to um create this group around my book. But what I have found with probably a hundred different people now um approaching that is every group is so different. And um you never know what's gonna happen. I have one gal, she gave her board a nine-month notice, the board kind of put their head in the sand, um, her date came and she left and they still hadn't hired somebody. But in that case, she finished well. She finished well before the Lord, right? Who is ultimately who we answer to. It's not her responsibility that the board did not respond in the way they should. Um, I've seen situations where somebody left in a big conflict situation, and it's almost like God said, okay, finally, now I can get the right person in there so this ministry can thrive. I've seen um, even in my own case, it happened so much faster than I thought. I thought we would start advertising and it would take forever. What I didn't realize is the day that we advertised the position on um indeed.com, which can be kind of scary, that was the same day that my successor saw that ad living six hours south of where we lived. Um, and so when I say a succession plan, you can only plan so much, but a true succession plan is a written document, usually about one to two pages, that outlines okay, from the time we hire the successor, what is this process going to look like from that time to the time the outgoing leader leaves? So um, this whole process is what is called a written succession plan. In my case, um, John started on January 1st, 2018. For that first month, I was in the driver's seat. I was the one making decisions, I had the authority. It was clearly documented in this succession plan. John was watching, I was introducing him to people in the community. On February 1st, we he went in the driver's seat, and I was simply there as an as an advisor. So everybody, the staff, everybody knew that John was in control and he was the decision maker. But I was there as an advisor, and the last day of February was my last day. I turned in my keys, turned all my stuff in, waved goodbye to the building, and left.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 39:21

Um, so the succession plan was signed by John, by me, and by our board chair. So everybody knew what was going on at any specific time. And that's one of the best ways to avoid conflict during transition, even if it's only a two-week period or if it's a three-month period. Um, I have not seen it very necessary to go beyond two or three months. In fact, that would have been too long. I think it would have um lent to confusion in the community. So um that's what a true succession plan looks like.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Wow, that's a good example with clarity and yeah, just very well, it just feels so clear the way you did that.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

And I don't know who originally said clarity is kindness or clarity is kind, but I often say that. It's when you aren't clear with something when that conflict and confusion steps in, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Awesome. So so tell us more about the so you mentioned there's a survey in the beginning. Are there questions and like workbook type of um parts in this book?

SPEAKER_03 40:28

There's questions throughout. And at the end of each chapter, there are some pretty in-depth questions that I encourage the reader to really focus on. Um, even things like when it comes to um, like, what are you gonna miss after you leave? This is something I had I was not as prepared for. I love people. If you can't tell, I'm an extrovert, I'm going to CareNet next week. I can hardly wait for all the hugs and the in-person interactions I'm gonna have. Because you are now my people, Jacob. This is how I do most of my interactions because most of my work as a coach is over Zoom or over the phone. So when I came home, I didn't realize how much I would miss the staff, the board, the donors, speaking in churches, holding all those babies. Oh my word, I missed holding the babies more than anything. And I had a big void that was difficult for my poor husband. He would come home from work and he would get all my 10,000 words in about five minutes. Um, you know, and my dog and my cat didn't quite get it. Like I know they love me, but they couldn't talk to me. So God and I had a lot of conversations and I really tried to listen, and but there was a lot of loneliness. So at the end of each chapter are some pretty deep questions that I encourage everyone to answer.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Hmm. So tell us more about your identity shift uh going from your your identity as the director to your to to the nude identity and how that how how you um yeah, what was that like and what and what was it?

SPEAKER_03 42:09

Oof, man, that was I would like to say it was an easy transition. It was not. I was the pregnancy center leader. And what made that difficult is I would be out in the community after I left and I'd see a donor and they'd say, Oh, Robin, we miss you. We're not really a fan of the new executive director. And all of a sudden I noticed this pride that would kind of start sliding down my body. And I'm like, oh, I don't like this. And um, you know, I had to stop any of my thoughts and say, you know, I know the director's doing a great job, right? Because it's it's easy to say, oh, thank you, yay. And then all of a sudden you start thinking, oh, there, you know, he's not doing a good job. So it's so important to be your successor's cheerleader. And my personality is such that I couldn't go to the banquet the first year. I I think I'm too prideful. I don't have the levels of humility to be involved there. Plus, I know myself well enough to know that I have a really overwhelming personality. And so to be involved there may be difficult on my successor. Now, I've heard of other situations where maybe somebody after some months is able to step back in and be helpful, but there are huge cautions there because unless you are a person who can then listen to decisions being made that you don't agree with and keep your mouth closed, um, it's it's not a good idea to go back. So my identity took time as I knew God was calling me to help other pregnancy center leaders. It's just taken time for some of those leaders to trust me. To have those conversations to see if I might be someone who can be helpful in their life. Um, but when it comes to succession, one of the things I talk about in the book is most books on succession talk about this nice smooth track, right? You're running on this track in a stadium holding the baton. You can see who's in front of you, you can see who's behind you, and it's like this smooth transition. Well, the reality is you're on an obstacle course, and it's more like a combination of American Ninja Warrior and the Amazing Race, and you can't see what's around the corner. And sometimes you're slogging through the mud, or you're trying to cross a river, or there's a wall that's insurmountable, and you're comparing yourself to that person on the other track, and then you run by that nice bench in the shade and it looks great, but you don't feel like you can stop. So you keep going. That's more what uh they're running as they're holding this baton, right? Uh, it's a little bit of insanity. Um, so having a coach can make that obstacle course not seem so crazy because it can smooth out some of the paths, it can bring other people along with you. You can hand more of those things off so you're not doing too much, and you can take care of yourself by truly resting your heart and your soul and your mind with proper boundaries.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

Wow, that's good. So there's a lot of pregnancy clinics and a lot of leaders who are, well, grappling with this, you know, they've been in leadership for four to twelve years, maybe twenty years in some cases, very rarely 30 or almost never. Um, and so yeah, what do you want someone to hear as they're thinking, wow, maybe I really do need to look into this and make this plan. And I just don't know if I have the time and energy. I'm already tired. What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_03 46:05

I recently heard a podcast. It said, Man, if you say that you're too busy for something that's really important, uh, it's a lie. Something needs to change. Um, you have to say no to something to get the best yes. I've heard that before as well. Um, time keeps on slipping into the future, write that old song. Uh, it's not gonna get any better. And if you don't make make succession a priority, it's gonna maybe not go so well for you or your successor. So I encourage people to buy this book at the very least. The second thing I would say is join a succession planning mastermind group. I'm forming group number 15. I'm always forming these groups. It's a small group of six to eight leaders that are walking alongside each other on this journey just once a month to really begin putting succession in front of you. And I sometimes wonder how helpful that is. Until just last month, I got an email from one of my former clients who went through that group and she said, Robin, I want you to know that I have found a successor based upon all the things you taught me, and I'm getting ready to go to a different part of my life, and I'm so excited. And she was so grateful. So every now and then I hear these stories, and I know that the work that God has enabled me to do really does help. And uh I would just say if you're interested in even thinking about a coach, uh yeah, I just schedule free time on my website. I'm here for anybody, and God tells me that I will serve whoever comes my way. So it would be an honor and a joy.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

All right. So I've got two, two, two more questions. One is what happens when someone changes their position in an org, going from one second chair maybe to another, or what happens when a big national group um brings in a smaller organization into, well, let's say a bigger org um adopts a smaller org, and the executive director of that smaller org now has to become a second chair. How might some of these succession planning steps allow someone to go from being the top leader to now a second chair type of leader?

SPEAKER_03 48:37

Well, I would say clarity is kindness. You got to have the conversations, you gotta be clear. Part of having a clear organizational structure is you have to know who reports to whom. You need to know what your role is. I just spoke with uh um like a second, a second chair, right? It wasn't the head executive director was coaching with someone last week, and she wasn't clear. Um, do I give the evaluations? What if I have somebody that needs to be fired? Do I have to go to CEO? Is that so? She had questions, and I'm like, well, you need to go get that that cleared up so you really know your role. And in that situation, Jacob, it takes a lot of humility on all sides. Because if you have that, the head leader now telling this former leader, you know, kind of putting them in their place, it's gonna take a lot of humility by this person. And some people just aren't made that way, unfortunately. And I would also say succession is for every single position. Your nurse manager, your client services director, they should all be creating that things I do document. So if all of a sudden they have to leave because of a family emergency, somebody has a binder or something they can look at that says, okay, what do I do? So succession is it should be for the entire ministry. I was around many years ago when Guy Condon was killed in the car accident, the head of CareNet, many years ago. This happens, maybe not that often, but every group needs to be prepared for that health emergency or whatever happens.

SPEAKER_02 50:17

Yeah, that makes it makes sense. Um it makes sense to be able to find to find essentially that information and documentation to be able to pick up the pieces better in order to continue or to or to you know save time and and not not to lose the momentum that an organization may have.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

Yeah. Very true.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

Um well, thank you so much, Robin, for sharing your you know, you just your passion for orgs to not just to to do well, but to be able to continue past leadership changes and continue to to serve God. Would you speak a speak a little bit more about what it looks like to weave God into that leadership role? Like, you know, what's some practical steps or thoughts on you know keeping a ministry from being an idol by having God fully weaved and and uh you know uh focused on or weaved into the point where it does it is not an idol.

SPEAKER_03 51:22

Well, I think one of the greatest things that I would say is your job as a ministry leader is to please God. It's not to please the people. And if anybody who's around me very much, and some of my clients who are listening, you hear me say this over and over. Your job as a leader is to do what's best for the ministry, to protect that mission and make sure the mission is happening. So if you have a disruptive team member, or you have a lack of clarity in your policies, or you're not training people well enough, or you have no process to bring new board members in, any of those things could put the ministry at risk. And so you're like that watchman up on the walls, looking in every direction, trying to protect the mission to make sure it happens. And your job is to please your father. Um, John Mark Comer has some different books that he's written, and one of his books is called Preparing the Way. And I'll never forget a story in that book of a monastery back in the 800s or something, and this old man would kind of shuffle in and sit in one of the pews and sit there for hours. And one of the monks asked, asked him, What are you doing? And he said, I look at him, he looks at me, and we are happy. So when I share that, ultimately each leader reports to the Lord in what they're doing. And if they aren't connecting with him regularly to get their marching orders or to be able to hear what he says, then it will be difficult to finish well. So it all plays into um into, and I know some of my clients are right now beating themselves up because they feel like they're too busy and they're not able to spend that time with the Lord. And part of our interactions and conversations are how can they build into their life that time with the Lord? And the reality is most of the time they need to hire another person because they're doing too much. And the board needs to take some steps of faith and hire the people in order to protect that executive director. And that's what I encourage boards to do is to protect their leader and make sure they're holding their leader accountable to not being burnt out or overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_02 53:46

So one of the the leader when when uh Heartbeat International had Peggy Hartshorn as the executive director, and Jarell Godsee was the VP or vice president, or I guess she was the president. And and then probably 10, 12, I don't know how many years ago, Jarell uh was you know graduated to the president role, and Peggy Hartshorn supported him and still supports uh you know the the at the heartbeat conferences, she often will be there and supports the the leadership. What would it look like for a pregnancy clinic to have a VP right next to and below the executive director? And is does that ever happen? And then also, what would that position be called in a pregnancy clinic space? And would it be a reasonable, you know, per you know, procession plan to have that VP take over the presidential?

SPEAKER_03 54:50

I've seen it, I've seen it happen, and it's it's happened beautifully in some situations. I've talked to a lot of leaders who really don't have anybody inside their ministry who is interested in stepping into that role. I did have someone inside the pregnancy center I ran who was interested and did apply for my job, but I chose to not be involved in the process of hiring at all because I didn't want to be responsible for possibly losing a friend, right? And the board didn't hire her, they hired someone else. So it can happen. I've seen it happen beautifully. You know what both Jorel and Peggy have is humility. And it takes vast amounts of humility for Jorel to allow Peggy to still be around and for Peggy to not get too intimately involved with decisions that are being made to really take her hands off. And that's really the number one quality I learned to look for in anybody involved in our ministry was humility because pride ushers in a number of sins. It might be the baseline for all sin. And so humility is is really important if you're if you're um growing someone from the inside who will take over. I am working with a ministry right now, not a pregnancy center, but they are actively in the process of preparing for succession at the end of the year from a woman, a woman who is inside. We're talking about how vastly different uh her personality is than the woman who's leaving, who is a founder. And it's very interesting the conversations we're having and the dynamics and how the board is involved in trying to ensure a healthy transition. So there's a lot to it. I'd love to help anybody if they have any questions or connect with anyone.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

Yeah, I I can imagine the person who um founded or you know grew an org from day one probably has a different experience, may have a different experience retiring from that baby that they've grown. Um from a group from a leader who maybe took it on in the middle and then passes it, passes on that baton to the next person. Can you speak about the differences that might arise between the founder who retires versus a process, you know, someone who uh, you know, someone a leader in the middle of an organization's life?

SPEAKER_03 57:23

Yeah, well, it's you know, usually ministries are founded and birthed out of great need. Uh, there's a lot of passion early on. The founder's doing everything, him or herself. Um, so they are pouring their heart and soul and they know every single aspect of the ministry, right? So the person who's coming in to take over doesn't have that history. They don't necessarily have the knowledge. So that the founder, the outgoing person, has even a greater and deeper level of responsibility to write down and get all that knowledge out of the out of her head because she knows what's happened. It's just automatically in her head, but the next person's not gonna know. And we're also dealing with changing cultures and we're dealing with uh changing futures. So what worked in the past isn't gonna work in the future. Um, so there's there just has to be a lot of conversation and even conversations the board is having. How can we take care of this founding director as she leaves? Right? They're even talking about um financially giving her assistance, um, which is beautiful for me to hear because not very many ministries will do that. They're trying to make sure she has retirement. They're trying to honor her, which is part of um really dealing with an outgoing executive director is how are you going to honor that person for the job they've done and what God has done under their leadership? Big conversations to have, uh, bigger conversation than I could go into here, but it is very difficult for founders at times to let go of something that they really do see as their baby.

SPEAKER_02 59:14

Yeah, that's really good. Um I've I've seen centers um hold an you know an event to to honor the person who had served. I've seen centers um use the the founder's name who may have passed on or maybe hasn't as a a name that they they use for fundraising or for their donor-facing work. Yeah. Um I've seen you know videos created where you know the there's pictures of the person on the who who did work there for years weaved into the music video. Um I've seen you know pages that have like the history page for the org, and it shows the different leaders over the time uh with you know weaving them into the historical history of that org as a version of the biggest.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:05

Which is a that's a big part that I talk about is you have to have a written historical document that's capturing who has been involved along the way, because I got to go to the 50th anniversary of the first pregnancy center I ran. And it was fun to look back through the history and see all the different executive directors, including me, way back in 1989, you know, as this young whippersnapper. Um, but what happened under my leadership? And it's a beautiful way to honor everybody's gonna be different. What's really sad is is the directors I work with, where there's no honor, there's no mention, there's no luncheon, they're just gone. Um, and that's that really grieves my heart when I see that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:50

Yeah. Well, this is this has been a this has been insightful, and I I really enjoy just the wisdom you've been able to share with us here. Um Robin, any final thoughts before we close in prayer? Or any way what any final thoughts you'd like to share with executive directors who are in need of making this kind of plan, um, but may not, you know, may not be ready to pull the trigger, but maybe they should be you know moving forward towards getting that pen to paper.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:19

Well, I know there's a lot of them out there, um, and a lot of you are listening, but succession is a move of God, and he's the one who's gonna be involved, whether you have a healthy handoff or not. Your goal is to please your Lord and your Savior in your role and your actions and your words so you can finish well, even if the entire ministry falls apart after you leave. Your goal is to be obedient to the Lord. And um, you know, I'd love to help in any way through those succession planning groups or buy my book or uh allow me to be your coach because it's a beautiful journey when I'm able to do that with the clients that I have. So it's an honor, Jacob. I'm really grateful to be able to share. I never thought I would write a book, especially a book on succession planning. And I love um that God has given me the ability to serve other people.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:18

So again, yeah, one more question. Sorry, I I thought we were almost there, but so um, so let's say someone starts working on their plan, their succession plan, and let's say they sent a copy to you to review, let's say they sent a copy to their board to review, uh, or or leadership in their org, and maybe to their pastor to review. Um, are all of those good people to review the plan? And who else might be good? Maybe the spouse or or yeah, who else might be good to look at the plan and to provide feedback on it?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:54

Well, you kind of can't get the cart before the horse.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:57

Um, an executive director, usually on their own, cannot create a plan because the board is the one that's gonna hire the successor. So the board is the one really that's gonna create that plan together with the outgoing executive director about what this time of transition is gonna look like, where both leaders have their hands on the baton before the outgoing leader takes their hand off and leaves. So um, yeah, really an executive director can't, nor should they, create a plan like that on their own.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:32

That makes sense. So the board is taking on a key role in building that plan.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:36

Yeah, the board is who's gonna hire that executive director and hopefully evaluate their process, you know, their ability to do the job.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:46

Oh, that's good. Awesome, Robin. Well, yeah, would you um wrap up our podcast with a prayer, a prayer for those who need to build a plan and for God to just bless them with what they need to accomplish that.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:01

Oh, I would love to. And if anyone wants to look me up, it's just Robinfuller.coach, not dot com. I tried to get that one, but I couldn't. So let me pray over this time and over all of you listening. Father God, I thank you so much for who you are. That Lord, you created the universe. You created each one of us, but you're intimate enough to know what every person listening needs. God, for those who you want to get started on this process, I pray that you would be the one that encourages them along the way. Give them wisdom to know where to start, whether it's with me or with someone else. I pray that you would just be the encouragement where they start. Lord, if I'm able to help in any way, I pray that you would open those doors to whomever those people are. But God, uh, I pray above everything else that you would be with each one, that you would help their pregnancy centers be successful, that more lives would be saved and impacted for your kingdom. Thank you for Jacob and this podcast and everything that he's doing at iRapture, and I pray just a special blessing over him and all that he has going on, and that you would give him that ability to make sure iRapture is never an idol, but God, you are always first. Thank you for what you're gonna do uh even today. In Jesus' name, amen.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:28

Amen.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

Peace day, and know that I am gone, peace, and know that I am gonna be staying, and know that I am gone, peace, and know that I am fire of midnight, the thunder of waves, murmur we can't hear with all the reaching of our hands, yellow fire, the broken, the wish inside the herd, chorus of our questions, all features of the earth feasting And know that I am girl Feasting And know that I am Broken's up at the graveside, wedding bells of new sounds of the lust found the reaching of our hands, veil and the pion, the mother and the son, family of terrifying the creatures of the earth, beast in know that I am gone, beasting and know that I am gone fire of midnight, the thunder o'er the waves, murmur we can hear with all the reaching of our hands, gallop by the broken, no wish intact, chorus of oppressions, all creatures of the earth, beast, and know that I am God, and know that I am God, the broken song at the grave cycle, wedding bells of tune, sounds of the lost and the reaching of our hands, the whale and the lion, the mother and the son, the family of terra creatures of the earth, beast, and know that I am God and know that I am God and know that I am God and know that I am.